3 jaw, 4 jaw, independant or self centering ?
Brian John | 11/07/2015 08:39:16 |
1487 forum posts 582 photos | I had not even heard of Taig...thank you very much. There is an Australian website which I am looking at now. At first glance they seem to be imperial machines made in the US with no metric version on offer. Edited By Brian John on 11/07/2015 08:41:47 |
Gas_mantle. | 11/07/2015 10:06:06 |
![]() 359 forum posts 269 photos | Hi, I'm very much a novice but can honestly say I have no problem centering in a 4 jaw independent, it's like anything if you stick at it you soon get better at it. After a 10 - 20 goes you start getting a feel for how much of a turn on the chuck key corresponds to the dial indicator reading. One little tip I have found is that when taking work out of the 4 jaw, if the next work piece is the same diameter (or very close) then release by using only 2 adjacent jaws then when you put the next piece in simply tighten up the same 2 jaws and if you are careful you will be very close to the same centre. In my case the chuck has a makers mark between 2 of the jaws so I just loosen and retighten the jaws either side of the mark. Peter. Edited By Peter Nichols on 11/07/2015 10:10:38 |
Andrew Hutchinson | 11/07/2015 10:38:50 |
30 forum posts 15 photos | Hi, I'm hesitant to post given the thread drift but since the OP is interested in the Taig and Sherline I'll lay out some of my opinions since I have both and use both regularly. The Sherline chucks are definitely better quality but they also cost two to three times as much as the Taig chucks. The Sherline 3.1" 3 jaw that I have is a better all round model engineering chuck than either of my Taig scroll chucks(3 and 4 jaw). Being harder It feels much more positive when setting than the Taig chucks which I believe have a 12L14 scroll and having nice clean hardened jaws the Sherline grips stock very positively. Out of the box the Taig comes with aluminum soft jaws which make tapping without slip very very difficult. It is a compounding problem because each time it slips you have to readjust which wears the tommy bar holes, the scroll and in all likelihood knocks the part out of alignment - mine never seem to cinch up quite the same even right after cleaning. The Taigs are very good economical chucks if you have a lot of common parts to face - just bore out the jaws and away you go. My 3 jaw started out around .003" TIR and the 4 jaw around .001". The three jaw is about .003 -.004" and the 4 jaw about .002" with wear but it depends on the diameter being held. As I mentioned before, they are a bit spongey so some care is needed to ensure reasonable repeatability. I can't remember the last time I checked my Sherline 3 Jaw but I imagine it is about .002" . The main thing is that it is more repeatable and feels firmer. You get what you pay for. The OP indicated not being interested in a 4 jaw at this time but I would caution anyone interested in purchasing a Taig for model making without a 4 jaw simply because the 3 jaw lacks the gripping power necessary. Apologies if the lathe is not intended for model making. The Taig 4 jaw is in my opinion a pretty decent offering and despite it's relative cheapness is much closer in performance to the Sherline 4 Jaws. The adjusting threads are much coarser which takes a little getting used to but it holds well, has good range of offset, deep jaws and is well made. The taig with three jaw was my first lathe, purchased for making N scale bits, and was mostly a frustrating experience until I got the four jaw. As lathes go the Taig is intended for folks who want to tinker with lathes or use else use it in a manner consistent with it's features. It has a larger swing which is handy and it has higher speeds and lever fed tailstock which I'm told are very useful for lapping/cutting certain work pieces. The carriage rack is very handy for rapid repositioning. Where it becomes a more frustrating machine is when you need calibrated feeds and slower speeds. When you have a single lathe 500 RPM is far too high a bottom speed and making accurate parts (especially as a beginner) more or less relies on there being a full compliment of leadscrews. I got by with dial indicators and repurposed inside mics but eventually cracked and started in on adding a leadscrew. Just after I started in on the project I got a used Sherline for $200 USD at a model engineering show in the states which sort of shelved the project for the time being. The Sherline is a very different animal. It is definitely pricier - I doubt I would have a lathe at all today if I had had to buy one new - just too much for a student to afford. That said they are worth every penny. The system they have works and works well for the limited envelope they are intended for. If you have the coin they can be arrive and drive machines. Smooth and powerful variable speed DC drive, quality screws on all feeds, screwcutting (essential in my books) great tool /work holding options (MT1 bore/8 mm collet adapter), better, if slightly funky topslide than the taig ( which has a poor retention mech) , a cross slide/ boring table almost twice as large as the Taig, etc, etc. The downside for me would be the tailstock which is not adjustable unlike the Taig. I'd prefer to have the same taper in both to open up the options for common accessories rather than having MT1- MT0. They do make a range of offsets to combat the potentially misaligned tailstock ram. I use them when drilling small holes where the drills tend to break off if not centered. Much more work to set up but with the screw feed I'm much more comfortable feeding .006"-.015" drills than handbombing in the Taig's lever feed where they bounce, bend and often break in my hands. I'm in no way dumping on the Taig - in the right hands they are fantastic machines ( http://modelengines.info/lathes/taig.html for John Bentley's work) but in my hands that will have to wait a while (if ever) for full implementation. In the meantime to encourage compatability across platforms I've bored out the headstock to Mt 1 to take advantage of the Sherline 8 mm collet holder and made an adapter for the Sherline topslide. I mention this in case you get a used Taig for a song and want more functionality otherwise I would get it all as a Sherline package and just use it if that is your intention.
Cheers,
Andrew Hutchinson Surrey BC Canada |
Ajohnw | 11/07/2015 10:41:30 |
3631 forum posts 160 photos | Posted by Brian John on 11/07/2015 08:39:16:
I had not even heard of Taig...thank you very much. There is an Australian website which I am looking at now. At first glance they seem to be imperial machines made in the US with no metric version on offer. Edited By Brian John on 11/07/2015 08:41:47 Before getting excited they come with a health warning. Only really suitable for light work. A problem in that area is that they will take substantial cuts with a decent tool but the head may distort spoiling the initial accuracy which is surprisingly good. They claim that to be better than 0.0005in all round. It was on mine, easily. By that they mean taper and roundness of work. It also pays to watch out for swarf getting on the rack and keeping it clean while working. Also to have plenty of stub drills about above a certain size due to the limited centre distance. A stub drill be the way is one that has been reground so many times it's a lot shorter than it was. Talking this area in general I advised a friend not to buy a baby lathe but to go for the mini. Completely ignored but several months after buying one he wished he had listened. The main reason he didn't buy the mini was weight. Odd really as they aren't very heavy at all. People get concerned about shed floors and all sorts of things. Might pay to bear in mind that a typical shed floor will stand some one weighing well over 100kgs standing on it. The thicker kitchen work surfaces ( about 30mm thick) make decent benches and with a bit of sensible support can even take a vice and have stuff hammered to death in it. John - |
Michael Gilligan | 11/07/2015 10:45:36 |
![]() 23121 forum posts 1360 photos | Andrew, Very useful to see a comparison by someone whio has both machines. Thank You MichaelG. |
Brian John | 11/07/2015 11:12:27 |
1487 forum posts 582 photos | Thank you all for the wonderful advice. The two things I do not like about the Taig are the aluminium jaws and the lack of a metric version. I would definitely buy the Optimum lathe but for the fact that they do not have a face plate for it. I am very surprised at this.
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Ian S C | 11/07/2015 11:53:06 |
![]() 7468 forum posts 230 photos | Brian, would not worry too much about the face plate, you can at a later date make your own, just as I made a back plate when I bought a smaller 4 jaw chuck for my lathe (orginal chucks 8", new one 6" Ian S C |
Vic | 11/07/2015 12:16:00 |
3453 forum posts 23 photos | As said, it's easy enough to make a suitable face plate. A possible source of supply is to modify a face plate intended for a wood turning lathe. These are commonly available at reasonable prices. |
Bowber | 11/07/2015 12:23:57 |
169 forum posts 24 photos | You may find the spindle nose is the same as another make of lathe and you can just buy a faceplate for that lathe. They do all seem to be based on each other. Steve |
Ajohnw | 11/07/2015 12:59:45 |
3631 forum posts 160 photos | The aluminium jaws on the Taig 3 jaw are adequate and have the rather nice advantage that they can be machined - the whole idea of using aluminium. Soft steel jawa are available for most what might be called real chucks for the same reason. Aluminium has the advantage that it's less likely to mark work and it still grips as well as a chuck of this type would be expected to. Better than many would expect as a lot of leverage is available when it's tightened via the bars. I'd rate it as a very good light scroll chuck and as mentioned earlier if the machine it is on is turning dead true it's not that difficult to get it to hold items with better accuracy than many collets. The usual problem with machining chuck jaws is that errors in the machine make them bell mouthed - not a good idea at all. The jaws of a chuck need to be parallel to very fine limits. It's 4 jaw is excellent and rated for the speed the lathe can run at. A few people have mounted them on mandrels so that they can be held in the 3 jaw chucks on larger lathes to save changing chucks. I feel the main problem with the lathe is head distortion made worse because they also do riser blocks for it to increase the swing. These are really intended to allow people to lightly turn certain scale loco wheels but they also allow the lathe to handle much larger jobs. This for instance An unfinished base for a spherometer turned from solid with cuts of a size that many probably wouldn't believe but I did grind up a tool just for this job. The rather heavy chamfers were put on by angling the same tool. It was held in place with a 5/16 bsw draw bar against the face plate. This work did distort the head a little but a near 3/4 inch cut using a form tool on one side of a V pulley about 3 to 4 in dia on mild steel under repair distorted it more than I would be prepared to put up with. The swarf was microscopically thin. It is possible to shim the heads up with aluminium foil to correct this but the roundness spec would not be so good as it was. Apart from this Centre distance is a serious limitation though but I would suspect that with the rest of it's kit that it is perfectly possible to completely make a certain size of scale loco on them. The vertical slide, chuck and lathe will easily handle 3/8" end mills at full depth if they are sharp. Peatol used to take them along to model engineering shows and turn mild steel bar away for demo's. If he still does I suspect many would be surprised by the size of cuts he takes.
Odd I can't see the image when I try to add this particular photo. No matter more amusement than relevance really John - I'd better add that full depth for an end mill is the same as it's diameter where I come from. -
Edited By John W1 on 11/07/2015 13:06:16 Edited By John W1 on 11/07/2015 13:06:47 |
Brian John | 11/07/2015 13:19:51 |
1487 forum posts 582 photos | The Taig machines do not seem to come fully assembled. That is okay if you know what you are doing but I feel that this is a bad choice for a first lathe. The Optimum still looks the way to go. The Sherline lathes are twice the price. |
Ajohnw | 11/07/2015 15:39:55 |
3631 forum posts 160 photos | Personally I think that the most important thing a first lathe buyer really needs to spend some time on is just what they want to make on it. Sizes. precision etc and reach a decision based on that. As a for instance one of the very major reasons for Myford's fame is all of the bits and piece of work shop equipment that have been designed to be made on them including other complete machines. Things like rotary tables and dividing heads of the quality that can be made are very expensive - they also give people something to make. Many started that way and then used the equipment to make other things, Make? Difficult. Because a machine is handled by a German company, Optimum and manufactured in China doesn't really mean that it has to be better than others. Looking at Optimum's catalogue statements like uses P5 precision hardened taper bearing on one lathe does mean something. A 9um run out on the spindle nose doesn't really mean anything that is of any use. The important thing is the axial alignment of the spindle with the bed. P5 might mean run of the mill bearings or even refer to a standard no one uses. I've not checked. John - |
Brian John | 15/07/2015 14:17:09 |
1487 forum posts 582 photos | Here is another brand I had not heard of before : Real Bull. Although more expensive than the others it does come with everything including two steadies and both three and four jaw chucks. To my eye it looks very well finished. NOTE : The Taig lathes do not seem to come assembled. You have to put them together yourself. The motor is also a separate purchase which seems quite odd. Edited By Brian John on 15/07/2015 14:17:38 |
martyn nutland | 15/07/2015 16:52:53 |
141 forum posts 10 photos | Hello Again Brian I've been thinking about your desire for a four jaw independent chuck and what we've been saying on the subject, especially apropos the difficulty of centring work that we beginners experience. I don't want to speak out of turn here and not for a moment suggest bad practice but if your heart's set on a 'four independent' and the budget will run to it, this has helped me and might help you. (As I've said, I find trying to centre a four jaw independent a considerable pain, although I can now just about do it.) Buy a self-centring tailstock chuck, the Jacob's variety (like a drill chuck) are cheapest and will take a workpiece diameter of up to about 16mm. Centre your stock in that, offer it up to the four jaw independent, and clamp on. Then test with your newly acquired dial indicator! Simples! I know, I know the shortcomings in both chucks, the tailstock etc etc can lead to discrepancies but for most day-to-day work is that a real problem? If you want to go the 'extra mile' on cost you can now buy a self centring scroll chuck for the tail-stock (about £65 sterling) and use the same principle, but it will give you a much greater capacity for a workpiece than the Jacob's variety. No doubt I will be shot down in flames on this one, but it might just help. Happy Days. Martyn
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Frances IoM | 15/07/2015 17:03:41 |
1395 forum posts 30 photos | "Here is another brand I had not heard of before : Real Bull." - sold in UK under Warco badging - one 'gotcha" is that the lead screw cannot be disengaged nor direction changed wrt chuck - hence the cover needed for some models which apparently leads to possible problems as only 1 half nut but more importantly can't it seems do LH threads |
clivel | 15/07/2015 17:26:05 |
344 forum posts 17 photos | Posted by Brian John on 15/07/2015 14:17:09:
NOTE : The Taig lathes do not seem to come assembled. You have to put them together yourself. The motor is also a separate purchase which seems quite odd.
The prices charged by Taig Australia seem to be rather excessive, especially as they only seem to supply the lathe as a kit. The advantage of having the motor as a separate item, is reduced shipping costs and more flexible choice for the end user who may prefer for example to fit a variable speed DC motor. Clive
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Steven Greenhough | 15/07/2015 21:02:43 |
144 forum posts 54 photos | Frances I have what I think is a Real Bull, sourced from SPG. There is a lever on the back that has three settings for the leadscrew, forward, neutral, and reverse. This is in addition to being able to reverse the chuck rotation... Is this what you mean or is there an element of screw-cutting (something I'll happily admit I haven't even attempted) that needs features beyond this? |
Frances IoM | 15/07/2015 21:55:00 |
1395 forum posts 30 photos | Steven - yes but no such lever on my Warco WM180 which is made by them (possibly adapted to Warco's spec) - I note by review of WM250V in #231 MEW that it has such a mechanism - reversing chuck rotation is no use unless you can also reverse leadscrew - if leadscrew was also easily unlocked from chuck rotation then an external motor and or handle could be added |
Steven Greenhough | 15/07/2015 22:55:34 |
144 forum posts 54 photos | Frances - Ah I think I see what you're getting at. My lathe is designated as CJ18, which in warco-speak is the mini/super mini, roughly, with a few differences. I think the Amadeal lathe is the same basic unit too? Strange that the lower end machine has a facility that a higher does not? |
Barry McDowell | 16/07/2015 02:22:47 |
12 forum posts | The Real Bull lathe is a great small lathe. You can cut both left and right hand threads in both imperial and metric with the appropriate gears fitted. I have fitted a 100mm spindle, tapered bearings, 4" 3 jaw and 4 jaw chucks and have made a 6" back plate for it. Magic machine used within its capabilities and mine. Barry. |
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