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Terryd19/04/2011 09:53:22
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Posted by Richard Parsons on 19/04/2011 07:34:59:

One thing I hate is when someone tells me that I must do this or that before I can enjoy my hobby......................

I wholeheartedly agree Richard, but what I hate more is when some jumped up nurk thinks that he is the centre of the universe so articles etc are naturally aimed at him and is not simply able to ignore things that are of no interest. I also hate those narrow minded nurks who find the occasional mistake in drawing (oooh I have never made a mistake they say) and badmouths a whole technology. It;s rather like finding an occasional spelling mistake in Shakespeare and damning it as crap or a couple of bad notes in the middle of a Beethoven Sonata tells them all musicians are nurks, rather in the same way as rest of the adolescents I have come across.
 
However, to be brutally honest I don't care whether you know what BS 308 is (laid out standards for engineering drawing for 73 years until 2000) in fact it is simply the equivalent of a dictionary in written or spoken language. If you find learning is dry and dusty you've had the wrong teachers, Remember the old adage, 'things can't be boring, only people'.
 
T
Nicholas Farr19/04/2011 11:36:38
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3988 forum posts
1799 photos
Hi, mistakes, who me? Well you must of heard the old saying; "he who has not make a mistake has not made anything"
 
Well I for one have made a few, both at work and in my own pastimes. many years ago I was called out to a breakdown during the wee hours to fit a new bearing in a machine which took a couple of hours. Later that day about dinner time I think, when I went in, I became aware that the bearing that I had changed, had to be replaced again. Now this bearing was notorious for being a frequent failure until the machine had a modification in that area. (bad manufacture design)
 
When I examined the failed bearing that I had fitted, I realised to my horror that I had fitted the wrong bearing type, luckily it was not uncommon for this failure to occur within a few hours of it failing, so no real inquiry was made to the cause. But with every bearing that failed so did the shaft and plate that it was mounted on fail also. The shaft and plate were made/repaired in house, but these bearings cost close to £300.00 a go, add that to the down time and the extra man hours to fit another bearing and repair the shaft/plate, makes a pretty expensive mistake.
 
Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 19/04/2011 11:43:36

Ramon Wilson19/04/2011 12:44:02
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1655 forum posts
617 photos
Gray,
About five years or so ago our parish council sent round a 'survey' to see if villagers would be prepared to have £50 per year added to their Council Tax to pay for a very elaborate, and to most, totally over the top, community centre. Typically most villagers ignored it but of those who did respond, just on 300 out of a potential of 1200 households, well over 80% disagreed. The Chairman of said council then decreed that as so few had been returned this could only be construed as most had give their tacit approval! What's this to do with the topic, well not a lot but does reinforce your view that surveys can be read to suit the need.
 
As I see it David has a difficult job in trying to keep a balance. What is 'boring' ( wouldn't it actually be better if that was re- phrased as 'of no interest')  to one will not be so for another. 'Pleasing all the people' - etc is definitely to the forefront here. Wasn't it just a while back that David said he had had complaints that a series on a building a ST-10 was too difficult because the complainant had no equipment? As an editor of a 'model engineering' magazine how do you actually deal with that?
 
However that said, just the response to the original post shows a high degree of support for what is being suggested so perhaps this should be re-considered in this light.
 
I agree totally with Nick in the belief that one can learn something everyday and that does not necessarily mean on matters relevant to engineering either. There is a saying normally used in a derogatory manner - "What he know's would fill a book, what he doesn't would fill a library" Well perhaps we should aim it at ourselves a bit more - what we do know may well perhaps 'fill a book' but what we could still learn may fill one or two more - despite the age we are at. And as for mistakes - well you're right there too Nick. The difficult part for some however is admitting them. (One day I'll relate the tale of the leadscrew nut).
 
I have a feeling this matter has yet to run it's course. I do hope the outcome will be favourable to all but perhaps that's rather optimistic.
 
Regards - Ramon
 
PS The community hall? No, never did get built. The actions of the chairman brought the village together like no other issue. It resulted in a Parish Poll with a 94% turn out.
 
 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 19/04/2011 12:46:10

Steve Garnett19/04/2011 13:20:25
837 forum posts
27 photos
Posted by Graham Meek on 19/04/2011 12:55:49:
 
One thing about this type of Survey it is not using up any Paper stocks and costing ME in the process.
 
Unfortunately, another one of the (several) deficiencies of this website is that it doesn't support proper polls in threads, as some do...
David Clark 119/04/2011 13:37:29
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
10 articles
Hi Grahame
A fudge is not intended.
Surveys are useful and we take note of the people who fill them in.
There are plenty of boxes for readers to fill in answers, they are not all tick the box questions.
 
Hi Ramon
I had a few people complain about the Stuart series, the one I started, not Harold Hall's one.
Result, I stopped publishing it.
This was because as editor I felt I should not put in what I got complaints about as it was written by me.
If a contributor had written it, not a problem.
Publish it for the benefit of those who would find it useful.
 
Having worked in engineering for many years, the methods used by many home workers without experience suprise me.
Then I realise that is how other people do it and then write about it in Model Engineer so teaching others.
I would rarely mark out a hole, centre pop it, drill it then clamp it on the mating part and spot through.
I would set each component in the mill and drilling them individually using the readout and then bolt them together.
They should then fit.
 
The chances are if I marked them out and drilled them, they would not go together as accurately as I would like.
 
Terry, write the first of your articles and I will look at it. If any good I will publish it in Workshop.
I will email you a set of guidelines shortly.
regards David
 
 
Gordon W19/04/2011 14:48:59
2011 forum posts
I can foresee a big problem if an article on tech. drawing is published in MEW, all the ex draughtsmen ( me included probably) will find something not correct ,then it will all start off again.
David Clark 119/04/2011 14:50:09
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
10 articles
Hi Graham
You know it will be in Workshop don't you?
 
Hurry up Terry
With your article, we get a new subscriber.
I might lose a few though.
regards david
 

Edited By David Clark 1 on 19/04/2011 14:50:27

David Clark 119/04/2011 15:10:59
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
10 articles
Hi Gordon
No problem
Terry has stuck his head above the parrapet, you can shoot at him on the forum.
regards david
 
Geoff Sheppard19/04/2011 16:22:32
80 forum posts
1 photos
Sam,
 
Sorry to disappoint you, but having done a quick check back to 1841, I can find no Lancastrian branch of the family. We are firmly rooted in West of England industry (mainly mining and early railways), with a major input from the forgemen of Pontypool. Perhaps that's why I've found myself in the post of Chairman of the Bristol Industrial Archaeological Society!
 
Regards
 
Geoff
The Merry Miller19/04/2011 17:01:03
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484 forum posts
97 photos
I can foresee a big problem if an article on tech. drawing is published in MEW, all the ex draughtsmen ( me included probably) will find something not correct ,then it will all start off again.
 
From Gordon W.
 
I entirely concur with you on this issue Gordon.
 
Bearing in mind that most drawings that found their way to the checker would always come back to the original draughtsman for modifying, sometimes more than once because even the checkers missed things. Then once the Quality Engineer, the Production Engineer and finally the Chief Draughtsman have had their say, back would go the drawing again to the draughtsman for more corrections.
I'm talking about drawings done by hand on paper or melinex, even so once we started on CAD in the early 1980's we still had the same problems to contend with but this time mainly in the interpretation of BS 308.
 
 
Being steeped in the intricacies of BS 308 drawing practice ( I wish I had kept my copies) No doubt at least 2% of it's content will come flooding back. Happy days!
 
Richard Parsons19/04/2011 18:13:13
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645 forum posts
33 photos

Ok I have had my rant. Now for something more constructive, when looking at some of the drawings in ME and MEWS I have difficulty in spotting the units used. Could the drawings have a simple code on them? Say ‘I’ for Inch, ‘M’ for Metric and ‘B’ for both.


I know it is a bit off topic, why not also put your surveys ‘on line’. One of the problems with postal surveys is that you fill them in but it is raining and the PO Box is ½ miles (0.8km) away. The P.O Box is full, sealed, the local Postmen on strike or what have you. With the ‘on-line’ version fill it in. press the button and go to the pub/feed the dog/lag SWAMBO for the winter.


I am not and newer was a trained professional artificer. All I know I either learned in dad’s workshop or learned by trial and error or from reading. My interests could have gone in two directions Model Engineering or wood carving. Somehow the iron beat the wood.


I find the quality of drawings in both ME and MEWS is good as I can understand them. I find photos even more useful as I can see what is what. I have two drawings in my album they are both dreadful, but they are the best I can do.

We were to have been taught Technical Drawing at my grammer school. Lesson 1 was how to sharpen our pencils and draw lines. It was OK. Lesson 2 was ‘incoherent’ and lesson 3, the teacher was ‘indisposed’ so ‘indisposed’ he had to be helped off the premises. So it was back to the confounded Gardening lessons which I hated. The only fun I had burying things, spades, trowels, hoes, the instructor’s hat, etc. I once nearly buried the instructor. After that they never let me near the manure barrow again.
mgj19/04/2011 21:12:59
1017 forum posts
14 photos
It should be very welcome I think. Its thebasic language of what we do, and anyone who doesn't understand engineering drawings just doesn't "talk" engineering.
 
Theh problem is that many just don't want to put any effort into learning the tools of the trade, and somehow in this modern world of quick fix games, no one will say "You need to know this now (metaphorically) pin your ears back an listen, because if you can't do this, you are never going to make a model".
 
Its rahter like the feeble minded responses about beginners articles being too complicated. They aren't - mostly they are very good and well pitched, but in the same way that the authors are writing articles and not encyclopaedias, the beginner has to want to learn and has to take a magazine artircle as a basis for additional and personal research. Nowadays its all on the internet and easily googled anyway.
 
So I'd say go for it - illustrate it well with 1st 3rd and isometric drawings side by side. Those that want to learn will and will hopefully progress or join a model club and find help. Those who don't have that motivation wil fall by the wayside, where probably they were going to fall anyway.
 
As for putting it in Workshop - that is a shame when you have beginners series on making this or that in ME.
 
 

 
Tony Pratt 119/04/2011 22:15:17
2319 forum posts
13 photos
Hi Sam, doesn't look like any one knows the answer to your trick/puzzle judging by the lack of responses.
Tony
Steve Garnett19/04/2011 22:21:14
837 forum posts
27 photos
Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 19/04/2011 22:15:17:
Hi Sam, doesn't look like any one knows the answer to your trick/puzzle judging by the lack of responses.
 
That's hardly fair - he asked us not to say! And anyway, by Sam's rules apparently we all know...
 
If you want a clue though, ask yourself what the two inner squares really represent... bearing in mind that there are no hidden lines in the drawing!

Edited By Steve Garnett on 19/04/2011 22:32:28

Harold Hall 119/04/2011 22:43:56
418 forum posts
4 photos

Making one of my occasional visits to the forum I have hit on this thread and felt I would like to add a few comments on two aspects of the discussion.

Whilst I do not disagree with Terry's initial suggestion but do not see how the magazine can separate reading drawings totally from drawing drawings, as he mentions he would base his article on interpreting drawings drawn to BS308. My reservations are based on just how many contributors are conversant with that standard, my self included. In my case, the last time I worked producing engineering drawings was 57 years ago as was the last time I worked for a mechanical engineering company.

Also, having spent a few years as editor of MEW, I am fully aware of the impossibility of redrawing contributors drawings, both for practical and financial reasons, so that they comply. Contributors will therefore need help to comply fully, or at least largely, with the standard so that Terry's article on reading them stands a chance of achieving its aim.

Secondly, I calculate that the number of contributors to the subject amount to approximately 0.2% of MEW's readership and does not therefore alone make an overriding case in favour of the original idea. In any case, not all of the contributors appear to see the need for the item. The editor must therefore be allowed to balance this very small number against the feedback he receives by other means.

Of course, at this stage I have not found it possible to read every contribution in depth so if I have missed something my apologies.

Harold Hall

ady19/04/2011 22:56:17
612 forum posts
50 photos
Got it!
 

Steve Garnett19/04/2011 23:05:21
837 forum posts
27 photos
ady, you are close, but not there yet. You haven't worked out the significance of NO hidden lines... and your cat looks depressed.
 
Harold, I suspect (well I hope...) that a more accurate way of assessing the vote in favour or against this would be to look at the proportionality of the voting here, rather than the absolute numbers.
Sam Stones19/04/2011 23:16:58
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922 forum posts
332 photos
Some of you guys are working late, but it's nice to get up in a morning and find so many postings.
 
Sam
Melbourne time = 08:15
Terryd19/04/2011 23:18:14
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Posted by Richard Parsons on 19/04/2011 18:13:13:
.................We were to have been taught Technical Drawing at my grammer school. Lesson 1 was how to sharpen our pencils and draw lines. It was OK. Lesson 2 was ‘incoherent’ and lesson 3, the teacher was ‘indisposed’ so ‘indisposed’ he had to be helped off the premises. So it was back to the confounded Gardening lessons which I hated. The only fun I had burying things, spades, trowels, hoes, the instructor’s hat, etc. I once nearly buried the instructor. After that they never let me near the manure barrow again.
 
 
Hi Richard,
 
Your comments really made me chuckle. I went to a very Trad Grammar School myself (founded 1562, and no I wasn't there then) . We also had quite a few 'indisposed' teachers at one time or another. They used to have to visit the staff room for one reason or another - mostly 'another'.
 
Funny thing is I've never been able to stomach gin since, curious!
 
Best regards
 
Terry
NJH19/04/2011 23:40:54
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2314 forum posts
139 photos
Harold
 
Thank you - that puts it into perspective for me. I'm fairly neutral about an article on drawings and rather against a series of articles but, if thats what folk want then I won't beef about it. There seems to be an overwhelming desire on this thread for this product and an arguement that somehow a post here is of more value than the result of a survey of the readership.
Your assessment that the posts here represent 0.2 % of the readership goes against that assumption. There have been over 3000 views of the thread BUT contributions from less than 40 posters - how do the "viewers only" feel and why is there a reluctance to join in the debate?
I'm a bit surprised at the enthusiasm from some of the "for" brigade - the quality of the work and depth of knowledge they demonstrate must surely mean that they already have considerable understanding of technical drawings.
So, if acceptance of articles is to be driven ( as I guess it quite rightly should be) by readers opinions, then let that be from a wider field than just this one.
One very good idea however is that it should be possible for surveys to be carried out on line.
In the end though the magazines exist to make money and the editor's job is to ensure that the content is popular and sells the product. He must be allowed to use his judgement to ensure that is the case.
 
Regards
 
Norman

Edited By NJH on 19/04/2011 23:42:21

Edited By NJH on 19/04/2011 23:43:09

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