Plasma cutter at lidl

I expect that many inverter machines specifically advise against running from a generator. Many have, I suspect, failed due to the ‘less than satisfactory waveform’ from a small generator output. Likely OK for larger much generators, but not for a lot of cheaper, small sets with very basic AVRs.

It is illegal, technically, to connect an industrial machine to a domestic supply. A Domestic supply is one which has a third party domestic dwelling connected to the same low voltage feed from the substation / transformer. The law assumes that only industrial users will purchase industrial machines. As with many things the legislation has not kept up with the market. The problem will only be addressed when there is an incident. The consumer market sellers of these things are pushing the limits and could face action if something goes wrong.

In a related development, much to the dismay of the hobby electronics community, Keysight (formerly Agilent and Hewlett Packard) have decided that they will not sell to or support equipment in the consumer market. This means unless you have a VAT number or limited company you cannot buy equipment, parts or even calibration direct from them. They still sell through Farnell, RS etc and even have an ebay shop. But if you buy a multimeter from Farnell Keysight won't give you support or calibrate it. The reason given: The eguipment is designed for professional use and not certified to consumer product standards. The implication is either there was a incident that was settled privately or the corporate lawers woke up and said no.
This is of course completely against the ethos of the original HP company. Bill and Dave would not be happy.

Robert.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 16/03/2023 09:05:48

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 16/03/2023 09:06:53

Where is that set out in legislation though and what does it say specifically?

It's not just out of line with market conditions, but it is also clearly at odds with how the power distribution grid in both rural areas and urban areas with large amounts of light industrial units interspersed with housing (Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield) functions.

Edited By Jelly on 16/03/2023 10:26:45

Jelly,

That's the problem, the legislaation is at odds with reality. There is not a single law that says you can't plug an industrial (not light) unit into a domestic supply.
There are laws that say you must not cause interfence and other standards that defne the levels considered interference. These are different for domestic, commercial / light industrial and induastrial envronments. The expectation is that domestic users won't buy industrial equipment. In the past that was generlly true due to cost size and distribution methods. Technological advances and marketing changes have changed that. The equipment manufacturers still design and test to the industrial (higher level) standards, not their problem...

A similar issue applies to some directly dangerous equipment. For example (UK) X-ray generators to use one professonally you need training permits/licences/registration a radiation safety officer etc but all these laws apply to professonal use only. They obviously think that no member of he public would buy and use a X-ray generator so there is no legislation or restriction on purchase. To use an American phrase "I plead the fifth"

I shouldn’t think they are bothered what you connect so long as it is not generating huge emissions.

Industry pays at a different rate to domestic consumers ( and doesn’t get Gov subsidy in an energy crisis) but generally at a lower rate per kW.

What’s the odds between a 3kW pressure washer and a 3kW table saw.?

regards

We can all agree that the law is often a mess. Badly worded Acts of Parliament, enforcement unfunded, delegation of powers, and a system that confirms or denies interpretations through the courts. It means what somebody thinks it means until a successful challenge changes it. Simple clear rules are unusual in my experience!

Robert's definition of a 'Domestic Supply' would appeal to an engineer, but I don't think it's a rule suppliers follow. I believe the difference between a 'Domestic Supply' and an 'Industrial Supply' is more to do with the contract and tariffs rather than the actual wiring. A domestic supply assumes the consumer's needs are simple; basically about 80A single-phase, with Terms and Conditions attached that empower them to intervene if a customer breaks the rules, maybe connecting something that disrupts the neighbours supply, or upsets the distribution network. A man knocks on the door and says he will disconnect the supply unless you stop or arrange a suitable supply.

The suitable supply could be industrial, one where the tariff, Ts&Cs, and wiring are all agreed to a suitable standard; that is the load is professionally matched to the supply, not just plugged in like a Hoover. A 100HP machine centre needs more than a 13A plug and a pre-payment meter! The professional matching triggers a whole bunch of different legal and safety requirements, and of course installing a big machine centre that does more than light work will change the status of the building from dwelling to something requiring planning permission, with a different tax liability.

Being able to buy lots of light industrial equipment that will just about work OK in an ordinary house is a new phenomenon. Lidl and others selling tools only a business could have afforded in the recent past, to folk who just want to plug them in at home without reading the small-print.

I suspect no-one will care about semi-industrial tool being a bit leery until there's a major incident. A serious complaint will result in an investigation, and then action might be taken. Unlikely we'll end up in gaol! More likely told to switch it off, or made to pay for a suitable supply. It's the paying bit that Model Engineers don't like!

Dave

Being able to buy lots of light industrial equipment that will just about work OK in an ordinary house is a new phenomenon. Lidl and others selling tools only a business could have afforded in the recent past, to folk who just want to plug them in at home without reading the small-print.

Hi, Dave

Please explain “just about work ok in an ordinary house”.

Maurice

I’m not sure that the law works quite the way some think it does and I guess this would be civil rather than criminal law. From the authorities side of the fence it would be about granting the power to enforce compliance where appropriate which has a good deal of judgement attached.

As to that 100 hp machine someone mentioned, that would be around 3 times the current available from my supply which is 100Amps so no need to resort to the courts the supply fuse would disconnect the property itself.

regards Martin

My description of an industrial or domestic supply is that used for conducted emissions standards. Nothing to do with power cost or billing. Harmonics generated by you plasma cutter will to some extent be absorbed you the supply transformer (causing it to overheat or have insulation breakdown which the distribution company don't like) so less likely to affect a domestic user on a different connection.

"just about work" may refer to equipment that draws more power than a 13A outlet is rated for but when used intermittently and / or at less than full output will work OK. I have in the past used a 4kVA power source (>16A input) on a 13A plug. However it was clearly labeled with an output current that was not to be exceeded and just to be sure had a 10A fuse in the plug. The plug fuse did operate once during a long test....

I agree with you on emissions and I said as much in an earlier post. So when you run your ‘industrial’ kit make sure you stay within the domestic emissions limits.

regards Martin

Hi, the maximum power you can use at home, is whatever the supply will allow, in my case it is 60A at 230V. I have a 30A socket to plug in my inverter welder, and it will struggle to work on anything less, basically for the arc striking threshold but doesn't use that much during actual welding, and my old manual metal arc welder has always blown a domestic plug top fuse if I use the top end of the output, so that gets plugged into a 16A socket.

So what makes the difference from a Plasma cutter to a TIG welder or an inverter welder, as far as emissions are concerned?

I will say that my nearest neighbour is about 100 meters away, and the local mains transformer is about 500 meters away, and I haven't had any complaints about any interference from anyone.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 16/03/2023 15:59:02

If anyone's near Glossop, and in the market for one, Lidl had 4 plasma cutters in stock when we left at about 16.30 today.
None of the accessory kits left though.

Bill

I wonder if anyone can find any instance of anyone ever being prosecuted or penalised in any way for using 'industrial' equipment on a domestic supply, in respect of the circumstances here? I suspect not.

Many industrial units only have a single phase supply no different to a domestic one.

Edited By Pete Rimmer on 16/03/2023 17:58:05

Industrial TIGs and inverter welders can suffer from the same issues This is only talking about plasma cutters because that was the original subject. Plama cutters do tend to be worse because the plasma is produced by radio frequency power.
Lack of complaint is not evidence of lack of interference. A user may not associate disconnections / slow responce of their internet or failure o a electronic device (due to harmonics) with your hobby activities. It is also hard to track down the source without specialist equipment. Not like radio amateurs who have to give their call signs and often have large antennas.

Note the one currently in Lidl is not the same as the one that started this long thread off. At least not in my local lidl.

Yes, that's correct, the very first one they offered included a built in compressor, but was not available in any store in our area; indeed when I enquired, non had even been delivered.
Subsequently, a slightly smaller one without compressor was offered, and I think this one is a duplicate of that, (on offer from last Sunday ?? ).
I've not looked closely.

Bill

Just for info, Blackpool South Shore Lidl has accessory kits (circle cutter, etc.) and consumables, but no actual units.

Rob

Hi Robert, there seems to be an awful lot of companies selling Plasma Cutters where the public can buy them, even two well know High Street retailers, and none of them say they are for industrial use only, and have a looked through the instruction manual of one of them, the only environmental protection that is mentioned for private households, is the disposal (WEEE) and not to include them in household waste. So are these people wrong for selling such things to the public, or not saying they are for industrial use only? Furthermore, I've looked online for regulations about the use on domestic power, and haven't found anything to say they shouldn't be. I don't actually have a plasma cutter in my garage, and don't have any immediate plans to get one. I have used them at work, and in one of my jobs the workshop was next door to a private house.

Regards Nick.

Hi Ian I’ve read all the comments on the plasma

cutter I was also wondering weather to buy one

my local Lidl have them in store now £150

not sure if i should buy one what do you use yours for

this one needs a separate compressor at least 4bar

cheers Steve

Hi Nick, sorry for late reply. I wasn't following the thread closely.
It depends on what environment the unit was designed for. While coming fitted with a 13A plug only close inspection of the UKCA / CE declaration will tell for sure.
As has been said before it is basically not expected that these would be used domestically. The seller is not responsible. It's like the electric scooters, illeagal to ride them anywhere public but plenty of big name stores selling them.... It's the user who is responsible and ignorance of the law is no excuse. Lelvel of enforcement may vary.....

Robert.