eBAY - Shill Bidding

I don't think Andy's example is a case of automatic incremental bidding at all. Here, a***p had put in a bid at 2232 on 07/02; on 09/02 at 1442 another bidder, _***p put in a bid of somewhere above £106. The a***p, on noticing he had been outbid, started putting in sequential bids, trying to find the second guy's bid and slightly outbid him. He gave up at £104, or ran out of time as the auction ended, and this set the final price of £106. Note that it is always the second highest bidder that sets the price in an eBay auction (unless there is only one bidder!). The creeping barrage approach of a***p is the hallmark of a novice, and he probably can't understand why he hardly ever wins anything - he might have been prepared to bid a lot more, but it may be that the auction ended before he got there.

If a***p had put in a bid of £104, after a previous higher bid had been made by _***p, his automatic bids (if shown, which they were not here) would have been at the same time, and presumably _***p's automatic responses would have shown as well. It also looks like _***p is also a novice; if he had put in his maximum bid of £106 (or more) in the last 5 seconds, it is unlikely a***p would have had time to put in another bid, and he would have won for £51 instead of £106.

There is nothing at all wrong with the eBay bidding syestem; it is rather that people expect it to be like a traditional manually operated auction, which it isn't. The process is set out clearly, and if someone doesn't understand it, that's their problem. It is, or would be if everyone used the best approach, more closely akin to a sealed bid process - everyone decides what they think a thing is worth, they put it in a sealed envelope, and at the end the one quoting the highest price wins. The difference here (and it favours the buyer) is that the highest bidder does not pay his bid price, he pays one bidding increment more than the second bidder.

David

Edited By David Littlewood on 13/02/2013 12:35:47

David, when I looked at it after David Clark put me right, I opted to show automatic bids and it is apparent that the current top bidder is/was using them.

The auction hasn't closed yet, but I'm not giving a direct link because some readers might pile in, and I may bid myself!

Andy

In the early days .watching an ebay auction in its latter stages and placing a bid at the last moment ( manually) used to be quite exciting. Since the introduction of bidding tools and the general disappearance of "genuine bargains" the fun has disappeared. I now make up my mind just what an item is worth to me , place my bid, and then forget it. I often buy consumables - batteries etc on "Buy it Now"where prices are good and delivery ( we are way out in the sticks) is often very rapid and of course I save petrol

Regards

Norman

Well I have had to open a case on the seller. Its not a private chap, will wait and see. But I now sell less on ebay due to the cost and the amount of total fools who use it. ie my last sale was a brian james car trailer which i used for 4 years to tow a smart car behind the motorhome. the trailer was as new, the chap came up and started trying to tale me it was just silver paint used on the trailer and not Galvanised. he would of course take it off my hands for less then he bid on it. he walked without trailer. I sold the trailer to a trailer company for more the the last ebay bid. also most of my buys of late have turned out to be rubbish, so unless i can view first I don,t bother. michael

Yes Baldric, but unlike a real auction the bidding is stopped at a predetermined time.

Obviously the idea is to win at the lowest bid, But I might be willing to pay more if its a desirable item, so its hardly fair to not be able to outbid a shill bid or snipe if necessary.

For example, I was bidding on some tool inserts recently, the bid stood at 3.99 for 25 items, I was willing to pay at least a pound an item, so within the last minute I increased my bid to £26, a snipe came in at 5 seconds to the end, preventing me from bidding again.

I could have put a couple of hundred pounds on and hope to have won at 40 - 50, but thats not really the spirit of the auction.

It's like gambling I suppose, you need to know when to stop.

Hi Lofty76,

I don't follow your logic. If you think it is worth more to you than it sells for then put your limit in. The highest bidder wins. I have used ebay for years and whilst it is true there are a few things against it, the bidding system is fair in my view. The other point is that if there are no real bargains to be had then it can be a great place to sell stuff. I have sold a few items recently and they made good money. My experience is that most people on there are fair people. It always pays to dig around, look at their feedback etc. as there are people I would not deal with on there.

To me there are only three sensible strategies for Ebay:

Put on a single bid for what you think is your top price. Walk away and if you win, be happy, if you lose - well it sold for too much.

If you really want the item, decide your top price and just submit it right before the item ends. Less chance of your prive being pushed up by other bidders genuine or not and less chance of being outbid.

If you REALLY want the item, contact the buyer direct and see if you can come to an alternative and they can withdraw it. They save ebay fees, you get certainty.

Neil

I always use option 2. I lose more than I win but thats OK. Option 3 breaks ebay rules but I have done some deals with the seller when going to view an item before. If they want to break the rules thats up to them.

MattK, Fair point, but as a seller you must on occasion think to yourself after the rapid flurry of bids in the last few minutes that the item could have sold for more if the timer hadn't shut it down.

I messed up on one recently when I was outbid in the last couple of minutes, I put in a new bid but forgot to press the confirm button, by the time I realised, it was too late.

The logic? keep the initial bids low, putting a high bid on at the start can easily see your top bid being broken in a couple of days, and then be double that by the end time.

I must admit I enjoy the bidding, I'd hate to be halfway into, say, an antiques auction when the auctioneer won't accept a bid due to a time limit.

I think there may be a few moans.

I've missed a few through bad connection etc. One site I used to use (bumblebee - police disposal) adds 10 mins from last bid if near the end so eliminates sniping.

It's within the rules actually if there are no existing bids on the item.

It's also within the rules (whether or not there are existing bids) if the seller is forced to withdraw because of circumstances beyond his control (e.g. lost in a fire, lost in a burglary, dog ate it, late discovery that goods were not as described etc). Of course you can drive a truck (or lorry) through this loophole.

I'm sorry, but your distinction between "real" auctions and Ebay is spurious, to say the least. I would be willing to bet that more items are auctioned on Ebay these days than in all of what you call "real" auctions - so which is the real one?

Any auction operates under a set of rules. The rules for Ebay auctions just happen to be different from the rules that operate at Joe's Auction House down 't road, which in turn are different from the rules of a Dutch auction, or your local livestock auction, or the rules that operate in the Tokyo fish market tuna auctions (a fascinating spectator sport, but you have to be up well before sparrow fart to catch it! Lots of videos on Youtube).

If you want to use Ebay, figure out what the rules are, and then use them to your best advantage. There are lots of winning strategies - John S has described one that is very effective, David C has described another.

But please don't whinge about it not being a "real" auction - it sems to be "real" enough to be the biggest auction house on the planet.

Regards,

Tony

Where you messed up was failing to bid your own personal limit in the first place. If you treat it as the type of auction that you seem to enjoy bidding at, then you will continue to mess up in exactly the same way. With ebay, *because* there is a time limit, you have very little scope to re-consider when someone out-bids you in the last few minutes/seconds. So the only answer is to place a bid, before the end time, NOT for the amount that you hope in your wildest dreams you might get it for, BUT for the top price you would be happy to pay for it. That way, you don't end up moaning because you lost the auction or because you over-bid in the last-minute frenzy.

Regards,

Tony

"I have used ebay for years and whilst it is true there are a few things against it, the bidding system is fair in my view"

MattK - the bidding system MAY be fair but the OP's thrust is in respect of shill bidding, and that is not only unfair, it is illegal. Even without private listing, it is difficult (but possible) to detect shill bids. With bidders being allowed anonymity, corruption (read THEFT) is almost guaranteed.

Rgds

Bill

.... might explain why so many govenment and local council bids are "sealed" for both tendering and disposal...

Rgds

At least with Ebay you have a fixed finish time and acces to sniping programs.

I'm watching something on an online acution at the moment.

It should have finished at 10:30 this morning but due to bids being added to this auction and previous items it's now slated to finish at 3:10

Problem is at 3:10 I am due out driving and can't even use my phone so chances are I will loose this item I have spent 2 weeks watching.

If I had know it was a 3:10 finish i could have made arrangements, my only saving grace is that it will get moved to a later time i can get to.

The sealing of bids and the anonymity or otherwise of the bidders don't have to go together; it is perfectly reasonable to have sealed bids, but the names of the bidders could still be published.

David

Actually, the point of sealed bids in gvt/local council dealings is to prevent corruption - council employees reading the bids & feeding back to their mates so they know what the competition has bid. The Ebay situation isn't the same at all - even if the auction isn't private, the bidders have no idea of the identity of their competition until the auction ends - only the seller can see the identity of the bidders while the auction is in progress.

Regards,

Tony

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 14/02/2013 16:55:20

Tony, it was only an opinion.

God knows how you would react if someone told you there was horse meat in the spag bol.

Hi, I agree with Tony, only the sellers can see the bidders ID during the auction. I have on more than one occasion been the only bidder in private listings and can categorically say there was no shill bidding in those ones.

JS. you were probably watching the same PP auction as I was. I got outbid, just had to put mine on last night and hope for the best. Don't get any good enough signal where I work, so couldn't use my phone either.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 14/02/2013 19:09:09