By continuing to use this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more
Forum sponsored by:
Forum sponsored by Forum House Ad Zone

The perfect ME Lathe

All Topics | Latest Posts

Search for:  in Thread Title in  
<< First < Prev 1 2 3
Billy Mills21/07/2011 11:51:14
377 forum posts
There are a lot of good examples of how traditional stuff was updated with modern production methods and electronics, often there is an outcry of "it'll never be as reliable as the old hand fitted stuff" well tell that to people who drive modern cars, use digital cameras, washing machines, PC's, printers/scanners. The general effect is to make products very much cheaper, easier to use and to vastly extend the range of things that can be done.

In 1946 expert opinion was that only one advanced computer in the UK could do all of the calculations needed. No one thought that we would have more than one machine per person. In 1960 a mobile phone was installed in the boot of your car if you were very rich. Now every kid has one in a pocket. The list is very long! The lesson is that traditional products can be made more popular by re-considering their function and construction and adding enabling features. It is a decision made by the buying public, they choose to have more tech gear at a fair price.


Manufacturers that don't listen to the card machines close down eventually despite the sad grief of their loyal customers. But if you fail to adapt you get rubbed out by the people who do.
I am sure that there are good markets for CNC machine of all sorts, the Hobby market is perhaps the smallest, but there are a lot of small businesses that would love to have affordable basic CNC at an introductory level price so that they could prototype and do small scale production without massive costs. The KX1 & 3 and the Tormach are three examples, a man in a garage can make a living making stuff that bigger outfits can't do. So If I was Rod's imaginary new machine business person I would be thinking of making millions by following the exemplars of consumer manufacturing, design machines with new capabilities with the home and small business user in mind. But the plain vanilla version is too well done by the far east, it is now a commercial death trap.
 
Happy plotting
Billy.
 
PS Sir John's "it is going nowhere" is absolutely true, it is just a pass time for us Meldrew's but it is interesting to read the variety of different viewpoints and sometimes you learn something too!
 
WALLACE21/07/2011 12:36:18
304 forum posts
17 photos
All too true - I transfered a BBC documentry about the 'Imperial Type Writer Company' a few years ago - it must have been made in the late 70's and it was all about how a once proud manufacturer was going under, people would be thown on the scrap heap and the governent was doing nothing about it - etc etc.
 
Lots of atmospheric shots of empty factories, busted typrewriters in a skip and interviews with people who had worked there all there lives - that sort of thing.
 
And the final bit was an interview with the man from the government whose last line was something along the lines of ' it's all very sad but there are new electronic devices coming along that will make the mechanical typewriter obsolete'.
 
All too true.
 
 
W.
 
 
 
Ian S C21/07/2011 13:27:04
avatar
7468 forum posts
230 photos
Another example of improoved production methods, and its effect. This goes back to WW2, and the difference between the RR Merlin engine, and the Packhard Merlin built in the USA using automotive production line manufacturing methods, even down to using proper oil seals instead of felt ones, The Packgard engine kept its oil in the engine, where as an aircraft with a RR engine tended to get covered in oil especially after aerobatics. Back then they were a bit stuck, they felt that it would upset production to update production, and I suppose the UK automotive industry was not as mechanised as the US one. Ian S C
KWIL21/07/2011 14:53:07
3681 forum posts
70 photos
Looking at a RK International machine tool list for 2008, they listed a Dalian CDS 320mm swing, large bore high speed gear head manual lathe, equal or better than the large bore Myford for £5490 + at the time. More like a Harrison M300 in style. This was I think cheaper than the Myford at the time.
Look at Dalian if you want to find out how many lathes they make (55000pa). Roberts sell them in the States. Dalian = www.dmtg.com/English/Products/CDS.asp
 
I wonder how much they would charge for an ME size decent lathe?

Edited By KWIL on 21/07/2011 14:55:23

Ian S C21/07/2011 15:19:48
avatar
7468 forum posts
230 photos
The machinery for making the stcks for the Lee Enfield rifles were imported from the USA, bet that P****d off a few blokes that hand carved gun stocks. Ian S C
Raymond Anderson21/07/2011 15:49:50
avatar
785 forum posts
152 photos
Sticking only to a lathe suited to model engineering, I would have my ideal one as a miniture DSG [same features as my grown up one, only in Harrison M300 size]
Regards,
Raymond.
Steve Withnell21/07/2011 19:54:10
avatar
858 forum posts
215 photos
Turning this around then. For a Model Engineering manual lathe, what's wrong with this?
 
WM280V-F Variable Speed Lathe with power cross feed
 
 
At £1500 for this, why would you buy a secondhand Myford?
 
Regards
JasonB21/07/2011 20:02:13
avatar
25215 forum posts
3105 photos
1 articles
Nothing wrong with the Warco at all, thats what I've been using for the last 3 years, If I can knock out stuff like this andthis on it who really needs more. Well I have added a 160mm Bison 4 jaw.
 
J
 
PS the speed ranges are actually 50-950 and 100-1900.

 

Edited By JasonB on 21/07/2011 20:16:44

Peter G. Shaw21/07/2011 21:47:55
avatar
1531 forum posts
44 photos
Re the Warco WM280 lathe.
 
On the face of it, it looks good, but I would comment on the following:
 
My lathe has a centre height of 110mm and a X-slide travel of 110mm. The WM280 has a centre height of 140mm and a X-slide travel of 140mm. In my albeit limited experience, the X-slide travel is not enough. In my case an additional 20mm would certainly be advantageous as if turning at maximum diameter, the X-slide is just about off it's screw. I imagine the WM280 will be similar.
 
Distance between centres: 700mm. Longitudinal travel 550mm. ???
 
Metric & imperial threading is quoted as 0.4 3.5mm and 8-56tpi. My lathe, a smaller lathe, has 0.4 - 12mm, and 3-72tpi. Now I don't know if these extreme figures are necessary, certainly I have never had to use them, but it just makes me wonder.
 
Finally, the speeds are quoted as 50-950 & 100-1900rpm. Now, there has been comments elsewhere about these electronic minimum speeds actually being down on power so I wonder just how useful they actually are. In addition, with a centre height of 140mm one could expect to be able to swing in excess of 250mm, eg a locomotive wheel. Now from what I can see in the Model Engineer's Handbook, the lathe can only turn wheels made from soft or easily turned materials, eg aluminium, brass or free-cutting mildsteel. For anything such as cast iron, a much, much lower speed is required. Which, I suspect, is why the Myford Series 7's could go down to 15rpm (I think).
There is another point - screwcutting. Personal experience is that my minimum speed of 125rpm is much too fast for a short thread which is why I have a mandrel handle and remove the belts when using it. Again, I wonder if 50rpm is too fast for short threads.
In short, I would like to see something, let's call it a reduction gear, mounted, say at the rear which would enable the speeds to be really dropped. (Perhaps we could call it a "back" gear!)

On a more general theme, I am generally unhappy about the ever-increasing complexity of modern equipment due to the ever-increasing use of electronic control systems as all they seem to do is ensure that if a fault does develop, either the equipment then becomes an expensive door stop, or it becomes necessary to pay someone to diagnose and repair it. Let me give you an example. My car is a 4 year old Ford Focus. Shortly after I bought it at 2 years old, a fault developed such that hard acceleration in the lower gears, eg high engine revs, would cause the engine to start stuttering. My local garage attached a diagnostic unit which agreed there was a fault, but could not go any further. Accordingly the car was sent to a Ford Main Dealer for a full diagnostic at £70, only to find that the problem was the fuel filter at £30. In all probability, 20 years ago, my local garage would have simply changed the filter anyway as there wasn't much else it could have been, but with electronic controls.....
So, as far as an ideal lathe is concerned, what I would like to see is one which has the choice of electronic and manual controls, electronic for the flexibility electronics offer, but has the option of being able to fall back onto pure manual control for those occasions where manual is thought to be better and for if the electronics fail.
As has been said, electronics are here and are not going to go away, but it does make the device, whatever that device is, more complex, and hence, in my opinion, more likely to fail.
Another idea would be to ensure that the elecronics are an add-on and that there is a publicly known specification for the lathe or whatever, such that any electronic controller could be used provided it's output matched the specification. This would mean that any faulty electronics could be simply and easily changed for a new and possibly more up to date version.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
JasonB22/07/2011 07:19:49
avatar
25215 forum posts
3105 photos
1 articles
Peter a few comments on teh above
 
As the topslide can be positioned anywhere along the cross slide its is easy to cover the full face of a large item, I skimmed the 10" faceplate no problem.
 
Would have to double check the travel but the later models have the leadscrew cover which does limit travel slightly.
 
It all depends on how much screwcutting you want to do, on that traction engine, about 1500hrs work I only needed to turn the 1/4x16tpi square thread brake screw & nut. Lets face it most models will have standard tpi or pitchs specified and there is far less to go wrong with a banjo and changewheels than a stepper motor and sensors on the spindle.
 
Speed wise the flywheel and final drive on the TE were both 9" OD no problem turning them at 200rpm as I've said before forget the books on our size lathes and go by what feels and sounds right. They do suffer a slight loss of torque on large dia work at lower revs, on the 9" stuff 0.025depth of cut was about as much as it was happy with more on the facing cuts as the feed is halved. Mine will actually run at about 45rpm and I don't find stopping at the end of a thread a problem.
 
J
Peter G. Shaw22/07/2011 14:18:29
avatar
1531 forum posts
44 photos
Jason,
Fair enough, if it works then ok, but as a beginner with not much experience I have to start somewhere and reading Tubal Cain's charts is a start. I take your point that your experience is that it is ok.
 
When I bought my present lathe, I did a lot of research looking at things like speeds, physical capacities eg slide travel, weight etc. What this showed up was that more expensive machines had lower speeds and more travel which was one of the reasons why the Myford was so expensive. Unfortunately, I knew enough to know that I did not know enough, if you get my gist, otherwise I would, perhaps should, have bought a S/H Boxford which had lower speeds of around 40rpm. Which is why I bought my present lathe as a new machine being, as I thought at the time, the best available taking everything into consideration.
 
In respect of screwcutting under power, I once tried it at 250rpm and frightened myself silly. That was on a Hobbymat. On the present lathe I have tried at 125rpm, better, but the major problem is that of inertia, ie it does not stop dead. As it happens, I have recently successfully cut a 30mm long thread but even so, I have had to switch off the motor and hope the inertia got me to the right point as otherwise I ended up turning the chuck by hand, or whipping the cross-slide smartly backwards at the appropriate time. If I had a much lower speed, say in the teens or perhaps 20's, I would have much more time plus the inertia (if I've got the phrasing right) will be less, hence it will be easier to stop at the correct point.
 
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw

Alan Jackson28/09/2011 11:55:41
avatar
276 forum posts
149 photos
I proposed and built a design for an ideal Model makers lathe in MEW151,152&153. This seems to incorporate many ideas suggested in this thread. It also has a top slide that can be positioned anywhere on the cross slide, which was described in detail in MEW 119,120 & 121. It was mistakenly referred to as a CNC lathe but is much more than that as it can work equally as well in manual, powered driven axes or full CNC axes. The idea is that the operator can choose (and even mix ) these operations together to get a range of versatility which is not possible with existing available machines.See this 
http://www.lathes.co.uk/stepperhead/
Alan

Edited By Alan Jackson on 28/09/2011 11:56:49

Edited By Alan Jackson on 28/09/2011 12:04:53

John McNamara28/09/2011 14:23:36
avatar
1377 forum posts
133 photos
Hi All

For a long time I had a very early (Pre war) flat belt driven Colchester with change gears. I fitted it with a DC motor and speed control not a modern VFD. The variable speed allowed me to screw cut up to a shoulder with relative ease. The DC Drive was an enormous help. That together wit a quick flick of the cross slide handle and I was able to job the job with little effort.

My current lathe is a German VDF Heidenreich and Harbeck RO 80 it does not have a VFD and the headstock is driven directly with no belts. It does however have slow speeds down to 25rpm. This lathe is about 25 years old.

A feature that is extremely useful is the wet multi plate clutch(s) and a reversing gear set that are engaged by the forward and reverse lever. This gives the same functionality as a clutch driven car. The main motor runs continuously when the machine is turned on. you can throw the leaver for an abrupt start or reverse or ease it in. I am assuming here that common sense will prevail and that a Machinist would not deliberately slam the lathe into reverse at high speeds. I am sure it can take it but I do not intend to try it. This machine has a DIN taper spindle with 4 bolts so there is no risk of the chuck coming off a thread. from the inertia of reversing. Threaded spindles should be a thing of the past.

The apron hand drive handle also has a movable graduated dial. Having set the cross slide dial to zero at the start of the cut and the saddle hand wheel dial to the stopping point. I am ready to cut the thread. So I engage a low gear, have one hand on the reversing lever one hand on the cross slide handle, make the first cut until the saddle hand wheel reaches the zero point, at which point I flick the cross slide handle to withdraw the tool and throw the clutch to reverse the machine. I mostly cut metric threads and so I usually leave the half nuts engaged unless it is a long thread.

I think an ideal lathe should have this setup if mechanical. Or a VFD that is capable of slow speeds (Not all are), without having to shift belts, a soft start and the ability to reverse while running with ramp up and ramp down so the machine is not subjected to stress.

Also a large graduated apron feed dial is a must.

If any member has a similar machine please IM me it would be good to compare notes.

Cheers
John

Edited By John McNamara on 28/09/2011 14:26:09

<< First < Prev 1 2 3

All Topics | Latest Posts

Please login to post a reply.

Magazine Locator

Want the latest issue of Model Engineer or Model Engineers' Workshop? Use our magazine locator links to find your nearest stockist!

Find Model Engineer & Model Engineers' Workshop

Sign up to our Newsletter

Sign up to our newsletter and get a free digital issue.

You can unsubscribe at anytime. View our privacy policy at www.mortons.co.uk/privacy

Latest Forum Posts
Support Our Partners
cowells
Sarik
MERIDIENNE EXHIBITIONS LTD
Shopping Partners
Subscription Offer

Latest "For Sale" Ads
Latest "Wanted" Ads
Get In Touch!

Do you want to contact the Model Engineer and Model Engineers' Workshop team?

You can contact us by phone, mail or email about the magazines including becoming a contributor, submitting reader's letters or making queries about articles. You can also get in touch about this website, advertising or other general issues.

Click THIS LINK for full contact details.

For subscription issues please see THIS LINK.

Digital Back Issues

Social Media online

'Like' us on Facebook
Follow us on Facebook

Follow us on Twitter
 Twitter Logo

Pin us on Pinterest

 

Donate

donate