When boredom overtakes, make something, anything!

I too would use something like a 5 or 5.5 drill before finishing with a 6mm but that doesn’t answer my question. If I used a 6mm bit for the second operation with unevenly ground lips would the hole end up over size?

Vic

IF the body of the 6mm drill is concentric with the pilot hole, it’s running true,  and it’s only the tip a that’s badly ground … then I posit that it will simply act as a boring tool, and therefore should cut to size.

Other opinions may be available

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/08/2023 15:26:03

Edited By Tony sacc on 25/08/2023 00:21:00

I am obviously missing something somewhere. Tony posts some stuff showcasing what he does and to me it looks pretty good and somehow this turns into a slanging match telling him he is doing it all wrong for not working to drawings? As he points out (not that it really needed pointing out) he is one bloke in his shed pleasing himself and not into mass production or even limited production runs but one offs! I have known a few people over the years that have customised bikes, cars, trucks and even built steam engines without drawings, it’s not uncommon. Often it yields good results.

From a brief read this thread appears to represent the worst of this forum where a post gets turned into a willy waving competition and where opinionated ex spurts impose their view of the world. The guy is amusing himself, getting the results he wants so why the need to chuck bricks?

if you can’t find it in you to say anything good, better to say nothing!

Paul.

Can of worms opened again. Unfortunately, there are a few forums like this where everyone is an expert. But that's life I guess, without arguments and everyone agreeing, it'd be a pretty boring world.

Yes thanks, this is what I assumed.

Edited By Tony sacc on 27/08/2023 13:02:34

I started an earlier post by saying Tony and I were at cross-purposes! Perhaps the issue is confused?

No-one is telling Tony he's doing it all wrong for not working to drawings. Rather, the gripe is Tony expresses a particular point of view strongly, saying things like :

'You need a drawing to build a bike? I don't know anybody who does that. I guess it's down to visualising what you're after, and dare I say it - imagination!'

Now that's a challenge, not least because Tony implies anyone who needs a drawing lacks imagination.

It happens Tony's opinion isn't 'the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth'. Tony is being rebutted because the whole truth is that most engineering isn't done Tony's way. His is only one of many techniques that engineers can apply to problem solving, and objectionable because it doesn't scale up. Teams can't work like that.

The idea one shouldn't need drawings or other help is wrong. Engineers use whatever is necessary to get the job done without imposing artificial boundaries on themselves or others. They look for alternatives, and don't believe ignorance is bliss!

Nothing personal, even though I think Tony's results are excellent, I don't care for purist approaches. If I want a plan, drawing, specification, risk assessment, bill of materials, CAD software, bought parts, external help or anything else, I just get on with it. My time is valuable.

We all know jobs often go wrong and different approaches are needed, therefore the best workers are flexible. Tony might do even better if he learned a few tricks of the trade - even drawing.

Dave

Edited By Tony sacc on 28/08/2023 02:35:16

Edited By Tony sacc on 28/08/2023 02:39:47

Realising at a very young age the value of "perspective" around anything in life, may be a trigger to start teaching yourself as you grow up.........
I think this is important observation, one should be able to think and improve, teach yourself but not always possible due to time or ability, or gather information from various angles to get perspective about anything, then figure out the best way forward for you, and if you reached the stage where you can spot faults in product manuals you probably ok enough. Only change if your improvement is better.
Otherwise you just a follower and if an artist your art may look like others you were taught by.

Who would have thought a simple post about a drill sharpening jig would foster such ire, says a lot about the people on this site!

I wonder why so many on this forum feel the need to criticise, does it make them feel superior, do they really need that to feel better about themselves. Only the Metalworking Forums members seem to have the same complex.

Offering a critique is great when asked for, but just plain ignorant and self serving when it's not.

Tony

Thank you for those kind comments.

JA

That's not how this forum operates Tony. We're engineering forum, not a mutual admiration society. Everyone can all be challenged - politely!

Posts often contain technical mistakes, misunderstandings, and methods that can be improved. Members are free to comment on these, and what they say is usually valuable. Model Engineers are not easily offended unless the comment is abusive. We understand having a positive attitude to criticism and other ideas allows us to improve.

With respect, you can't be offended after posting things like:

Now if you mean tricks of the trade from the experts on this site and other sites like this - no thanks, I prefer to teach myself by actually doing, rather than listen to someone who thinks his way is the only way and the correct way. The correct way is what works for the job, not how you were taught by someone who was taught by someone else. That's the problem with experts: No imagination, no visualisation, no thinking outside the box, just do it the way you were taught to do it and don't confuse things by actually thinking for yourself.

The statement is controversial and based on ill-founded assumptions. For example how do you know you're dealing with 'someone who thinks his way is the only way and the correct way'? And everybody on the forum thinks for themselves, not only Tony. Sounds like a personal belief system to me; prejudice not engineering.

Easiest way to avoid negative feedback is not to provoke it. What response was expected to 'I'm sure you'll all hate this, sorry no apologies!? What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: expect to be treated in kind. Please think about what you type and don't accuse others of being 'plain ignorant and self serving' just because they suggest alternatives.

Nothing wrong with 'Tony Method' in a singleton home-workshop, but it doesn't scale up or support team work. That's all we're saying. There's no need to take the hump.

Dave

I don’t think the guy who built this did it without drawings, sometimes you can work straight from your minds eye and sometimes you need CAD.

Mike

Dave - Silly old Duffer +1

Tony

There is of course a world of difference between manufacturing and modifying motorcycles or vehicles.

In the early 1970's i was inspired by an article in Motorcycle Mechanics? to modify a BSA Bantam to produce a trials bike. This entailed fitting C15 forks and steering yolk, the stem required shortening to accommdate the Bantam headstock. Various other "modifications" including the fitment of a George Todd cylinder head, obtaining a barrel ready ported, (why reinvent the wheel) fitting crankcase and flywheel stuffers to my own design, but no doubt from inspiration gleaned elsewhere. I toyed briefly with a Wal Phillips fuel injector and made an expansion chamber modified to accomdate a high level rather than a low level exhaust. As more knowledge was required than I possessed I have no doubt I copied the design.

I fitted alloy mudguards, fitted a home produced single seat and various bracketry to suit it is unlikely other than a rough sketch to note dimensions I would reach for the drawing board.

I am currently nearing completion of a pinfire percussion cap and pin insertion tool for an RFD friend of mine, "copied" from a proprietry Hawksley/Bartram 12 gauge device, Why reinvent the wheel? I drew a sketch and transferred the dimensions, I then on a similar sketch reflected the reduced dimensions for the 16 gauge tool I was actually making. The simple dimensioned sketches I produced facilitated ease of manufacture without the need to constantly measure and reduce scale with the attendant risk of error. I devised a form tool to create the external profile of the cartridge head and set up my tailstock turret with Rotabroach and milling cutters to machine the internal features, all with idiot proof depth stops.

I also I have also made a fixture to drill the hole for the pin in the cartridge head and a second tool to complete the machining for the cavity to accomodate the percussion cap, both produced from my imagination and dimensioned sketches. As the original cartridge heads were pressings and my alternative is machined from solid brass there was nothing to copy for this stage of manufacture.

Also on the stocks is a pedestrian lawnmower service stand, which has progressed through several redesigns sketched on paper, some of which were inspired by internet searches. My early designs have transformed into something almost fit for purpose without any wasted materials or time. Once I am happy I will start manufacture.

In truth you are "modifying or customising" a previously manufactured motorcycle and there is no harm in that, Also what you have made appears to be well executed. However what I and a number of other Forum Members took exception to is the ascertion that if member needs or produces a drawing to make something they lack imagination or skill. Further as has previously been mentioned if your posts are provocative you must expect a response in similar tone.

Robert Butler

I’ve been online since 1996 and probably joined my first forum the year after. Having joined and left quite a few over the years it’s become apparent the internet has turned many men into keyboard cowards as so many say things online I’m sure they wouldn’t dare say in public for fear of getting a punch on the nose. We see rudeness and profanity on here from time to time but the mods are normally pretty good at dealing with it. Perhaps I should add that although I’ve Not seen it on here, bullying by moderators is also quite common and was a topic of conversation on another forum recently. Many agreed the power goes to some folks heads. Many posters speak with authority about topics using just their own experience without considering that others may have perfectly valid reasons for working a different way.

My comments are NOT aimed at anyone in particular.

I'm somewhat mystified.

If you aren't willing to learn from others, your potential for making things is pretty limited. You can work out a lot from basic principles, but for me half of the pleasure in a hobby is sharing ideas and experiences. There's plenty of ways to express your creativity, problem solving ability and imagination without discounting the benefits of other people's experiences.

I'm happy to learn from other's experiences, and my welding would still be at the 'queue of slugs' stage if the late John Stevenson hadn't let me have an afternoon playing at his welding table, for example.

Neil

I think the problem might be that this guy is posting lots of photos of things he makes, but whenever someone, (on this engineering forum), asks a question, or offers some advice, or points out a potential flaw, he has a go, saying you are all pathetic toy makers, who couldn't even put Lego pieces together ! Nice. If he said that to me/us in the pub, he would be "shown" the door in very short order !

So why does he bother posting his stuff in the first place if he thinks you are all clueless idiots ? Most of us post to gain thoughts, ideas, discuss problems, and tap into the expertise of the experienced members. One has to hope that the ad-hoc devices this guy makes for his motorbikes - without any engineering qualifications - do not turn out to be dangerous.

I don't have time to invent a wheel that has been well traveled by some of the giants before Me. Listen, learn, then adapt and over come.