Update Smart Meter

Hybrids also have to lug around a heavy battery which reduces mpg and the charging from the engine is both very inefficient and costly.

Andrew.

You are really struggling folks.
Taken overall, I think a hybrid fixes nothing apart from the egos of those wasting money on them.

I plugged my "smart"-meter's display in for the first time yesterday evening. When I saw it first thing this morning, at about 8am, it said I had already used 99p of electricity today!

I thought, where? It is interesting and thought-provoking to survey what our homes get up to...

- Fridge and freezer; both small, under work-top types.

- Broadband Modem, which BT told me I must leave on all the time, apparently for "up-dates". Anyone know about this? I turn the computer off on itself, then at the mains, when not using it.

- The central-heating / hot-water boiler's control unit. When the heating is off the timer is not really doing anything so I wonder if the unit can be switched off until I want hot water (the shower). However, the boiler does have very occasional, curious little coughing and grunting moments so it may need stay "On" for whatever is this (presumably self-testing) routine.

- Oven clock - handy as a clock generally, but not essential. Its main use is as cooking timer.

- Radio / alarm clock in the bedroom.

Of these the fridge and freezer will be the hungry ones, but the rest all add their much smaller pennyworths to the bill.

'

What else?

- Washing-machine? Off at the socket. Microwave? Ditto.

- 'Phone or caving-lamp charger? No, and never overnight anyway.

- Kitchen and front-room radios? Off at sockets. Their own ON/Off switches seem downstream of the internal p.s.u., announced by the very quiet humming.

- Any lamps left on? No. Also, my home is not so overlooked I need curtains everywhere, so it has to a very dark night indeed for the usual mature-male's 3am return-trip to need lamps, my loo being downstairs. A wind-up camping-lantern by the bed, and a small battery-powered, cupboard-type l.e.d. lamp in the bathroom, serve such purposes. I've also fitted a solar-charged lamp over the stairs. Though sold as a garden-shed luminaire but insufficient for a workshop, it is very effective in that indoor role, its array clipped to the banisters and facing a South-facing window. Or would be if it still worked - must try to repair it. (Is there a round-tuit emoji?)

- Workshop equipment? No - off 13A sockets off including those feeding VFD units. If I forget the 4-way extension-lead hung on the wall, a window in the shed door makes the nocturnal glow of its indicator neon, visible from the bedroom window. In that case I switch off the isolator in the hall.

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It is surprising just how much electricity a home is using when you think it isn't; and it is too easy to surround ourselves with needless "standby" modes, small-power chargers left on past "full", and so on!

Yesterday the meter said I had used about £2 of electricity - and I had used no power-tools or machines other than fridge and freezer; and occasionally the electric kettle with sufficient water for purpose (mug-fulls for beverages, one kettle-full for washing-up).

Perhaps the advertisements for "foot motors" will re-appear in ME and MEW ere long!

Even with Ontario's added costs it is still cheap cf UK. Perhaps we should be charged the cost of generation + a margin, afterall the windfarms have not really seen any added costs yet. Ditch the international references where appropriate and charge genuine UK costs of generation.

The interconnectors will of course be different rates. I note that EDF customers in France pay a lot less than EDF customers in UK, even though some EDF power comes across the interconnector.

Nigel,

You've forgotten the standing charge, which the display clocks up as well - hence the reason you appear to have a spike of usage at midnight.

Regards Tom

Anthony's negative conclusion is much too simplistic.

IC powered cars outperform hybrids on long cruises, like motorway driving. Hybrids do a reasonable job on motorways, it's just that the expensive battery and complicated drive train don't do anything useful.

However, hybrids outperform IC cars in most other circumstances, especially the stop-start driving typical of urban travel. On average, a hybrid gets between 20 and 35% better mpg than the same model with an IC engine. And the emissions are much lower in towns, where IC engines waste fuel ticking over in queues. In the UK more people do stop-start urban journeys than cruise on motorways.

Generalisations are unhelpful when choosing tools, including cars. Whether or not a hybrid is the right choice depends on the type of motoring to be done. Probably not the best choice for someone living in the country who mostly drives long-distance on clearish roads. But an excellent choice for anyone driving in London, where hybrids maximise mpg and avoid the swinging congestion charges waged on gas-guzzlers. Londoners have chosen to breath clean air rather than allow motorists to generate fumes.

I'm not sure why hybrids are rubbished. They're just another choice that's useful in some circumstances. They're not a panacea or a threat to civilisation.

Dave

Apart from the issues fixed as mentioned. As far as efficiency is concerned there will be an RPM where the IC engine is at its max efficiency. If the vehicle was designed to run at this constant rate then as the rotary to electrical conversion efficiency will be high the energy extracted from the fuel will be better than the IC engine alone. Typically battery sizes for hybrids do not require such high capacity as EV's so are lighter and as has been said harvesting energy from regenerative breaking pushes the efficiency even higher. So it helps with the urban pollution problem and uses less fuel.(The Yaris gets 60mpg compared to my fiesta at 50mpg) Apart from that yes you are right it solves nothing.

regards Martin

Have you checked out the latest Honda Hybrid with a very small battery and a direct drive to the wheels over 80km/h. They have a very good fuel economy as well, much better than the same engine in the same car size that has a gear box. The eHEV uses about 1/2 the amount of fuel of the gear box models. Note that the eHEV engine looks to be down rated in power output slightly, and the manin motor to drive the wheels is 80 kw. But the test drive does not seem that the 80kw is insuffecient. Certainly I would have expected a lot more go from the non ev model. but not so. I still driving my 08 Toyota wagon and its around 6l/100km and around 5.3l/100km on a trip. Some of the new electric only cars for sale out here,can be connected to your house and you can draw off the car battery up to 3kw. Some are using their cars as part of the home energy back up, and take the car to work and charge on the free car stations around.

How long do you think free charging stations will last, sounds like carrot dangling to me.

I have a Dutch friend who is an engine specialist at the European patents office. He specialises in automotive engines. So he knows a touch more about such things than the general public. His take on hybrids is that they are a joke and he is in a much better position to judge than anyone here on the forum.

I run a 2007 2.0 Mondeo Estate. My fuel consumption is slightly over 60 mpg. As the car is virtually worthless, I can see absolutely no reason to buy an expensive electric car to replace it.

Andrew.

“Free” charging stations? Surely not accurate as someone has to pay for them.

Am all for EVs or at least the choice. I do resent the state subsidy in purchase and running. I also question what will happen to the Tesla batteries in 10-12 years when their toxic batteries need replacing at a cost of around £ 22,000 at todays rates.

By all means redistribute energy consumption per smart meters. Using EV batteries as storage devices seems eminently sensible . Of course the devil is in the details as who reimburses the EV owner if his EV is regularly drained ,needing recharging thereby shortening the battery life. In all conscience the supplemented smart meter implementation has produced little else save removing the “burden” of reading your own meter.

An earlier poster is right that old meters will be replaced if an individual sees a financial benefit.

Thanks for the answers.

The thing that made me ask the question is that the electricity they generate seems to come exclusively from burning fossil fuels.

It feels contradictory, considering the current narrative.

Martin.

I think that is how a lot of people feel. Our current car will probably out last me, so why should we change. We bought it just prior to the first lockdown. What with my shielding and being confined to barracks I have only filled it up 10 times in that time, and each time I need to take out another mortgage.

From what I have seen in reports by the motoring journalists the infra-structure as regards charging etc is not anywhere near ready. Those sites which are installed seldom work correctly.

I did have a quiet chuckle to myself last night when I saw an advert to "subscribe" to an electric vehicle. I think they have finally woke up to the fact that these cars are just too expensive. Reminds me of the television rental companies of my youth when TV's were similarly expensive compared to wages.

To get back to KWIL's original post. My thoughts went back to my Grandparents evenings sat in front of the coal fire, no lights on, and listening to the battery powered radio. We have moved on 70 plus years since then, but we certainly have not progressed very far really, if the energy companies want us to return to this way of life. Looks like we will have to sink a shaft in the back garden and tap into the Forest of Dean's coal reserves.

One has to ask what will happen to peak viewing on the TV? The Soap Opera ratings will soon be a thing of the past.

Regards

Gray,

My Honda Jazz averages pretty close to 60mpg. once warm the engine switches off when not moving. with the price differential, i would want a hybrid to do much better than that.
The future issue will be the secondhand value of EV cars. Will fitting a new battery make a secondhand one nearly as good as new as there are fewer moving parts, or will replacement battery cost mean that they become scrap when the battery dies.
It will be interesting to see how the future pans out in terms of cars and powering our homes. I suspect that there will be many who can just about afford to run an IC car but wont be able to afford the switch to EVs. Equally a new gas boiler might cost £3000, but switching to a heat pump likely to be 10 times that when the need for extra radiators and beefed up insulation is factored in.

Not contradictory. Hybrids are less wasteful compared with a pure IC car. Far from perfect if the goal is to eliminate burning oil entirely but no-one said they would do that.

All hybrids do is get better MPG in average road conditions than an ordinary IC engine, surely a good thing as far as it goes?

They are a stepping stone.

The goal is an affordable electric car with a range of 300 miles that can be recharged in less than 10 minutes with British renewable energy. The alternative is a vehicle relying on imported oil that's going to get expensive over the next 10 years, which makes people ill and contributes to global warming.

Dave

Although the momentum to get upto speed may use the same amount of fossile fuel your average IC engined car will waste that energy as it slows down again. A Hybrid or full EV will recoupe that energy to generate electricity to put back into the battery so some generating is not directly from burning fuel.

SOD mentioned that a hybrid will turn the engine off when stationary, well they also do that when on the move, at least the Kia that I get to drive regularly does. for example if going down a slight incline or approaching a roundabout or traffic lights when you would be coasting with your foot off the throttle in an IC car the HEV will turn the engine off. The battery will take care of things like keeping the power steering and vacuum assist going so you are actually covering miles with no fuel being burnt and little drain on the battery which is probably being topped up anyway by regenarrative. It's quite odd at first when things go silent and the rev counter drops to zero but you soon get used to it and can hardly tell when the engine kicks back in.

Neither would I. But the Mondeo is already 15 years old and won't last forever. The average life of a UK car is about 12years, and the clock is ticking. When the time comes to replace it, and let's hope it lasts another 15 years, there will be a reality check. Although I expect there will still be a fair number of IC cars about in 2035, it's unlikely they will be first choice for a new car.

As a thought experiment, how high could the cost of a litre of petrol rise before we change our behaviour?

It's already happening to friends and family. A friend who runs a white van for his business mentioned it's now cheaper to pay Bath's £9per day congestion charge, than it is to loop around the clean air zone when going from job to job. Last year it was cheaper to loop.

As I'm low mileage and mildly well-off, I could pay up to about £10 per litre before having to think, though that's assuming other prices stay still, which they aren't. My son and daughter would not be able to sustain anything like that: they both live on a budget, and are both delighted the price of fuel didn't go past £2/litre and is dropping back. But sooner or later it will. UK inflation is now over 10% per annum...

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 23/08/2022 14:52:56

Have just posted a letter to a national newspaper asking why, when Britain only draws about 4% of it gas from Russia are the energy prices skyrocketing?

Is it because the utility suppliers to Britain are continental owned and we are expected to subsidise their much greater reliance on Russian energy?

Also, why does the standing charge need to rise at such an astronomic rate. The static installation needs no more maintenance now than it did a year ago!

The less that energy that you use, the greater the proportion of the bill is made up by the standing charge.

It smacks of paying more and more for less and less.

Sounds like one of our suppliers when I was at work. The only figure that ever mattered to them was on the bottom line, and that was NEVER going to decrease unless we cancelled every single order, which we could not do since they were vital components..

So we found another supplier, at a lower price, and for some offerings, used their products, which in some respects were superior.

It also enabled us to sell into another marketplace so we smiled en route to the bank..

Buying a genset is not on. Capital input, high fuel prices (even if you can avoid the punitive road fuel duty ) and the environmental effect are against it. Plus the neighbours might complain about the noise!

And living in the flatlands, we cannot copy what many Swedes do and install a mini hydro-electric generator in a local waterfall.

The best that we can do in terms of transport for just two us are small cars, where despite the small fuel tank, we can cover nearly 500 miles on a tankful of petrol. It would need to be an expensive EV to do my normal 280 mile round trip without a fairly lengthy stop for a recharge on on an already 3 hour each way journey.

Life is tough. More and thicker woolies for winter, seems to be the way.

Howard

Howard

The high increase in the standing charge is mainly because of the way costs are allocated when a supplier fails. To avoid customers losing supply, they are transferred to another supplier know as the supplier of last resort process. The costs involved are passed onto all of us via an increase in the standing charge. This is a process defined by Ofgem. They are consulting on whether this should be changed - see attached . **LINK**

So everyone pays for those businesses that presumably were trying to get market share by selling at lower costs than they could sustain. Indirectly this means that we have all subsidised those that went with a cheap supplier.

Stuart

Edited By Stuart Smith 5 on 23/08/2022 18:38:38

Ain't that always the way? Surely those customers could be identified and charged proportionately more to recoup the money - it wouldn't be popular with them, but it'd make my day a lot better...

Rob