Change to the Code of Conduct

Not sure if it is related but one of the things on a few forums that irritates me is the people who just bang up a post to point to their latest video. I don't know if it is to drive views for revenue or they are too lazy to participate normally with a description and a few still pictures as I ignore them.
Maybe it's just that I don't want to be watching endless youtube as I really enjoy the way people like Jason present their work, a bit like a magazine build,  which for me is the big plus for the forum.

Edited By Bazyle on 23/06/2020 14:54:25

I second that.

Ian P

I know what you mean, if the video is genuine without links, its Ok, particularly if the person engages with other forum members.

If they were people looking for ways to to bump up their advertising revenue it would be different, but when videos have views in the tens or low hundreds this isn't the case.

Neil

But while all three groups are users or potential users of the site, it is MyTimeMedia and the advertisers who provide it and pay for it, not these three groups.

The only problem with common sense is that there will always be someone who doesn't think it is and gets upset, but if the owners and funders of anything in the public eye set the rules so be it.

Having some experience of engineering products I feel that I can determine the dodgy from the ok. Many people who join this forum are novices and in search of genuine advice. Some YouTube reviews I have seen have me muttering “you must be joking”. Some eBay sellers are selling stuff that is far from acceptable and does not meet UK standards and regulations. An example is a couple of lamp holders I recently purchased, having decided to make a pair of the ubiquitous copper tube table light I was looking for some suitable lamp holders, suspecting I would probably finish up putting them in the bin I purchased a couple. To call them shocking could literally be true, no earth terminal on a metal lamp holder the cap of the ES holder was still visible and touchable so the shroud is inadequate, the insulation was cardboard and no effective strain relief for the cable. A Canadian YouTube instructor was unconcerned when someone raised this in the comments. I doubt Canada would give these holders an ok just as the UK doesn’t.

I must support this forum no platforming inadequate and probably illegal supply paths, the quest for a bargain can be taken too far, if you want to be bombarded with dodgy adverts then Facebook will be more than happy to oblige.

Mike

How do you know that - you don't think purchases/digital subs of the magazines advertised here could go towards running this site?

What kind of profit do you think MyTimeMedia and their advertisers would have if it weren't for the other "three groups" that populate this place?

What does it cost to keep this website up and running?

(or is that too rude a question?)

H.

Ah, this explains why a couple of my links disappeared recently. Sounds completely reasonable. I know of the product links on youtube, but must admit I take no notice of them myself. I will check before posting links in the future.

Adrian

I had a similar question in mind. I have no real experience of this type of electronic stuff outside the costs of our club web site (which has a forum function that we don't currently use) and my own website niether of which costs more than £200 a year for hosting and domain charges. I guess there may be a software licence associated with this site and support from the host that may or may not be included in a monthly cost? Whichever way I can't see it costing more than £1k a year? Staffing is effectively free as Jason and I suspect whatever other moderators there are, do this as volunteers? Neil being "on the books" so to speak is effectively free to the forum. All supposition so happy to be shot down!

At a glance I see 7 current advertisers. I am sure for the priveledge of gaining access to the number of members there are on a daily basis plus any passing browsing trade they would be very happy to pay £12 a month - you wouldn't get a decent ad in a local paper for that! So effectively its self financing with no cost to MTM, even without any advertising revenue £90 a month for the publicity for the media group is pretty small beer.

Here is an idea, charge every forum user £2 or even £5 a year, no idea of the number of active members but it must surely be 500 then any advertising revenue is a bonus!

Worth considering maybe that if you are an advertiser in a publication, do you have editorial rights over the content of the publication? This situation just seems a bit skewed to me in that advertisers can dictate what products are discussed or shown in a forum that is supposed to be an open forum for discussion and exchange of ideas and promoting a hobby.

Paul.

The thread about a pooryl earthed machine, suppled by UK dealer who advertises on the forum that was deleted also came to my mind. Davd mentioned it and Neil repled " The other thread was pulled as statements were made of dubious legality. For example it was stated as fact that a supplier was negligent because they didn't unbox and inspect every product before sale. "

Without going into the details of that case, it is irrefutably the case that an importer IS responsible for the safety of the items they import. They need to take adequate steps to insure that. Many importers do actually check every item or samples from each batch. In the particular case I was surprised that the suppler has not issued any recall on the product as the problem was clearly a design or manufacturing process issue, not a random failure.

Again in general terms, not specfic to that case, importers should remember that if a non -compliant product (for whatever reason), causes a death, the owners /senior management can face manslaughter charges. It is up to the courts to decide if relying on a foregin companies quality control and testing was reasonable (it obviously wasn't adequate or there would be no case).

What did happen to ARC adverts.

Robert G8RPI.

Obviously the cost of running this site is paid by MyTimeMedia out of their income including that from from print and digital subscriptions and advertising revenue,

But as you not only do not have to be a subscriber to use the site and if you are a subscriber you don't have to use the site they are independent things in my opinion - and the users who may be either a subset or superset of subscribers do not have a controlling interest in what is or is not allowed on here.

Common sense and a desire to provide a place where model engineers can meet online, and the magazines and advertisers products can be fairly promoted seem to be a good aim for the forum.

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 23/06/2020 18:45:14

I think, Martin, that the answer is how many other hobby magazines have as busy a forum as this one?

We aren't ignorant or the fact that providing a linked space for readers helps the magazines - my personal view is that the forum provides a sort of 'virtual club' that helps bring readers from all over the world and both magazines together.

Most companies with a forum as busy as this (it's arguably the busiest hobby engineering forum on the web, certainly in the top two) would be breaking their necks to monetise it by doing far more than just selling a modest amount of adversing space.

But most magazines operate without an accompanying forum, even if they have a website the majority just allow discussion of articles.

But the forum represents an investment by the publishers that has to justify its ongoing costs (and hopefullly future investment). That means raising direct income, whatever the intangible benefits of sustaining the readership and the wider hobby.

As someone who has shown themselves to be a shrewd investor, I would have thought you would appreciate this perspective more than most?

Neil

Costs are generally proprtional to the number of users per month so the answer to the question is 'not insignificant'.

Some costs come from supporting what is a bespoke forum (one reason why its so hard to change things - even getting the new CoC up was difficult, even as an admin I can't edit some pages). MyTimeMedia is aware of the desire of users for a more modern platform, and if that does happen it will probably increase costs even if it makes maintenence easier.

Neil

Do the CoOp unbox and check every kettle they sell? Are the likes of Currys being held responsible for not checking all those White Knight tumble driers that caught fire?

Workshop equipment is materially and legally no different. The whole purpose of PROPER certification of imports is to give a supplier the confidence that they don't need to carry out those checks on anything other than a occasional sample basis. That is why proper certification is expensive, complicated and requires verifiable evidence, and why some overseas suppliers who just rely on a sticker are able to charge lower prices.

Obviously no system is 100% effective, but you can't hang, draw and quarter a supplier for following the same practices as any other bulk importer/retailer of electrical goods.

Neil

The Co-Op and the like will normally at least have a sample tested and act on reported issues. Additionally they will use supplies that meet their requirements for quality control etc and the items will have been tesed before leaving the manufacturer.
The issue in the particular case is that the item with the bad earth had a design / production fault so clearly adequate checks or QA had nott been carried out. Additionally there has been no mention of any recall or other recovery action.
The importer has to ensure the items they sell are safe, how the do that is up to them. If they want to trust the manufacturer that is up to them but they are responsible if it all goes wrong. For whatever reason (greed, ignorance and lazyness are common) some importers do not fulfil their obligations. It is then a game of chance, just hope it's not you or someone you know who looses.

There is a similar issue with other hobby magazines. This Months Radcom had a front cover picture and review of a piece of test equipment and funnily enough a shortform catalogue from one of th UK stockists.

Robert G8RPI.

A quick look at the trading standards site shows john lewis recalling a bathroom cabinet because the mirror might fall out.

Did john Lewis check them all, No

Did they make them No

However they did recall them, not the maker the seller.

Hi Neil.

I agree, it is a very knowledgable & active forum and I think that's why we stay and contribute.

The purpose of my few posts was only to serve as a reminder that all parties need consideration for the site to keep working - so it's not only MyTimeMedia & its advertisers that are important, the customers and participants are too and I wanted to bring that into the conversation.

For instance, it's very often the case that forum members recommend products sold through businesses featured here, so in effect, we are sometimes unpaid advertisers and should be appreciated as such.

When all is said and done, this site could probably survive without outside advertisers, but not without its members, which is the thing I think is most important to remember.

You have a difficult balancing act keeping advertisers and customers/contributors happy, no doubt about that!

Martin.

Neil,

Digressing slightly but picking up on your comment re awareness of a desire among users for a more modern platform and previous comments that have been made in response to users desires of being able to upload different format documents not just jpeg and responses have been in line with yours above re costs and the requisite changes being too expensive. May I ask if anyone has ever investigated alternative options? Following my previous comment re costs I did a bit of uninformed research and found several UK forum hosts offering monthly charges roughly in line with those I suggested with unlimited users, and free migration from existing platforms (latter may be stretching it a bit considering the likely size of this forum). Also forum software available at either a monthly charge (range £11 - £100) including support and back up or outright license purchase for around £450. Your response indicates the current system is significantly more expensive than these charges, so maybe it's time for a change and gain some better functionality and reduced costs at the same time?

Also agree with Martin that the participants of the forum make it - no posters, no-one to see ads and no benefit to anyone! Likewise no point in having a group wanting to post and no forum to post on! It's mutually beneficial to all.

Paul.

Hi Paul,

I'm a member of two other forums that use software I have recommended to MTM.

The charging is based on the number of users and for this site I estimate the cost (before any maintenance or conversion costs) would be $490- -$570 a month.

That would only give us a gigabyte of storage which isn't enough, but in any case we would want host on a dedicated server (shared with other MTM websites) with automatic fall back to a backup. This adds another layer of costs.

Essentially the extra you are paying is covering security, reliability, easy updating, and ease of use, very high levels of availability (typically >99.99% up time) and avoiding throttling/logging off of users at busy times (something we all want to see!)

Neil

<Edit> Just to add, look up 'dedicated web server cost' on Google for an idea of the range of costs and bear in mind we need something at the higher end of performance, security and reliability.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 24/06/2020 11:11:56

I may be weird but I actually like the format of this forum. I find it much easier to use than, for example, the Model Engine Maker forum which, I think, uses a commercially available solution. I don't have any of the problems that others have suggested on my W10 PC, Android tablet or Android phone.

Rod