Dumb question from a none driver

I would not worry about the ownership issue, for a start you have evidence that you paid £700 for it so that's the perceived value from both your and the seller's perspective. That would satisfy the CAB. Secondly your messages showing that you bought the car, not your son. That makes you the owner and he (eventually) the registered keeper. This is actually a sensible way to do it since he'll be the user and responsible for it's usage plus any potential fines for driving, taxing or C&U offences etc but you remain the owner of the property.

The easiest way to transfer a vehicle is for the seller to do it online. It happens immediately and you go away with the new keeper slip so you can then tax the vehicle. It's possible the seller did this but they shouldn't have given you the V5c if he did it, just the new keeper bit.

If he didn't do it online then best idea is get a signature from the seller ASAP and send it off yourself so you know it's done. Keep hold of the new keeper slip so it can be taxed.

???

I decided to buy the vehicle for him but as the owner. He is the keeper , hes already sorted insurance and tax out whilst i was present so no worries about that ,and his insurance turned out almost half of what he was previous paying for the car.

How was tax sorted out when it seems to be not registered correctly?

DVLA don't care where the money comes from, all they want is the reference number off the V5C (which the new keeper should not even have) and a payment from somewhere, and that the vehicle be insured. Doesn't have to be the owner or keeper that pays.

Hi Pete, However, when the transfer is registered any tax against that reference number will become null and void.

Regards Nick.

Yep, and to put icing on the cake, the registered keeper gets the refund, not the person who paid.

My guess is the transfer was done online, the V5C will turn up in a few days and the son will be the properly registered keeper and the vehicle properly taxed. Most likely option since the alternative would require someone to relinquish the vehicle whilst retaining liability for any fines it might accrue.

Just tell him to say CAB bought him an old Corsa van for £700. End of story.

They want him to be able to work and keep up debt repayments, not to make life impossible for him.

If he was saying he had a three year old Mercedes Sprinter they might suggest he downsizes...

Neil

Ok I think i have enough of an idea of what needs to be done and i`ll update once sorted out.

Thanks to all who replied.

Mark

Mark, there's a wide variety of, sometimes conflicting, advice on this thread; I'd really make sure you understand all of the implications of your next action before you commit yourself.

I think you would get good advice from a forum such as Pepipoo, in their Flame Pit sub-forum, (they are motoring specialists, we are for the most part engineers with other interests and opinions).

Make sure you are able to provide concise and unambiguous answers to the following questions in your first missive should you chose to post there.

How long ago was the vehicle bought by you?

Who currently holds the V5c and what is the DOCREF date on it? (the latest V5c is red; this replaced the previous blue one if you have two copies in your possession)

Who's name and address is on it? Is it the person who sold you the car?

Did the previous keeper actually own the car to sell? (i.e. is there HP on it, found by doing an HPI check?)

Who last taxed the car, how and when? (if taxed, by your son, prior to change of keeper, then the remaining tax will be cancelled, and returned to the previous registered keeper - not your son, when the vehicle is transferred to your son. He would then need to tax it again, or be in breach of legislation)

Your son will be the new registered keeper, there isn't a DVLA concept of registered owner.

N.B. all the insurance questions must be answered truthfully for obvious reasons.

As far as I'm aware, your son only has to provide an address where he can be reliably contacted. i.e. he could be the registered keeper, but at your address, though I'd check up on that in case the law has changes recently. N.B. this can also lead to further unintended complications, like council parking permits etc, as well as any NIPs for road traffic matters would be sent to your address, not his if he's flown the coop.

When I bought my van a few years ago, the seller and I changed me to registered keeper on-line at his premises; we then both kept printouts of the confirmation. I was then able to tax it on-line in my name.

Bill

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I'd keep Bill's advice on the back burner for use later if necessary. The problem with asking all those good questions on the Internet is there will be a lot of conflicting answers, more questions and more confusion.

Not worth the trouble. I don't think there's a problem with the Vehicle Registration because Mark's son was able to Tax and Insure it both of which involve DVLA checks.

Mark's main issue is avoiding a CAB entanglement due to a theoretical future suspicion his son has broken their rules, ie Mark needs to prove to debtors if asked that his son doesn't own a car worth more than £1000. Doesn't seem likely, but could be avoided with a little retrospective paperwork, and I doubt anyone is going chase a second-hand van.

The other stuff might be new problems but in my view it's not worth looking for extra trouble at this stage. For example, if the car is stolen or has outstanding finance due, then Mark will have sort that out whatever. Nothing Mark can do now will fix either of those problems so why worry, especially as they probably don't exist? There's no reason to suggest the sale was dishonest. Getting confusing advice about all the nasty things that could go wrong will only be a wind-up, causing unnecessary vexation. My advice, don't go looking for trouble.

Mark's position isn't awful, just imperfect. On the plus side he bought the car, his son has successfully registered as the keeper and has taxed and insured it (so it must have an MOT). All OK. Unless something else develops, the problem is only a potential need to prove that Mark owns the car, a question I think is unlikely to be asked. Everything else is a side-show.

Keep it simple and don't lose sleep fretting about complications. If it ain't bust don't fix it.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 31/08/2019 16:31:36

I'd add the following,

When you son insured the car the insurance company will have asked who the owner was. Assuming he told them it was you there should be a record of that because in the case of ay a fire of theft claim the insurance should pay you, the owner, not your son. This is the same as if he had the car on lease or finance. Check the insurance documents.

As others have said, get a receipt for the sale to YOU at £700 from the seller with his name and address on it. It can be a scrap of paper torn off an envelope, push comes to shove it's up to any disputing it to prove it's fake, not you to prove it's real.

With insurance docs saying you are owner and a you having a receipt there shoul be no issue.

Robert G8RPI.

I can’t believe how such a simple question has turned out to be so complicated.

Dave, with the greatest respect please read what I actually wrote.

I wasn't suggesting asking those questions at random somewhere, rather I suggested a particular forum, and answering those questions himself in his posting not asking them of someone else.

The contributors on Pepipoo are experienced, but busy and sometimes rather abrupt; it saves time and misunderstanding if they have all the facts presented to them unambiguously right from the off. Many of the regulars there are lawyers, serving and retired police officers, magistrates etc. Wrong or misleading advice is normally very quickly peer reviewed and corrected.

I didn't suggest that the above problems existed, merely that it was helpful to be able to exclude them from the start, to save questions going back and forth.

From Mark's posts on here, there would appear to be two log books involved, one complete, and one new keeper's slip (Section10 V5c2)

I haven't seen them, so can't comment on their relevance; perhaps the Section 10 was from when the previous keeper bought the car, perhaps the previous keeper filled out the V5c with new keepers details, posted it as required, and just handed over the slip. The full log book may or not be a red herring.

There is also the complication of when all log books were replaced by the DVLA due to fraud concerns. I appreciate that one shouldn't but I have retained both copies of mine.

The folks on here don't know how the vehicle has been taxed by Mark and his son. If it was done before change of keeper's details were registered with the DVLA, then that may present issues.

I don't think there's a problem with the Vehicle Registration because Mark's son was able to Tax and Insure it both of which involve DVLA checks.

To answer this bit, one would need to know how it was taxed, Post Office, on-line, pre or post, change of keeper's details. I would assume that if they took the log book to the local PO, updated the keeper's details, and taxed it at the same time, all will be well, but we don't know if that's what happened.

Also Insurance is no longer checked when taxing a vehicle, unless you do it in Northern Ireland, though a current MOT is still required if applicable. From my experience insurers don't do any DVLA checks at all, just relying on you filling out the proposal form correctly.

As a non driver, Mark understandably won't be familiar with these procedures, hence trying to make sure he and his son get everything watertight and resolved successfully.

As regards contacting the DVLA with a query, yes it seems reasonable, but I didn't suggest doing it initially as the advice they give over the phone isn't always that reliable, particularly for slightly out of the ordinary requests. I speak from personal experience on that one.

N.B. Mark. I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but don't forget to keep an eye out for the new logbook/V5c. It should arrive within 4 weeks, though it's normally sooner. If it doesn't arrive, the instructions are in Section 10, though I'd phone them first before filling in the V62 form as there is a charge associated with that.

I'm sure it will all work out fine in time.

Cheers Bill

When I tax my vehicles online, insurance and MOT are checked by the DVLA.

Jim

Hi Maurice, two anomalies really, first Mark should never of had the sellers V5C in his possession, although he should have been able to view it and check that the details of the vehicle were correct i. e. the VIN number being about the most important and secondly, Mark has not made it clear if a new keeper has actually been established.

Regards Nick.

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Hi, as Jim has pointed out the DVLA will check if MOT and insurance are in place. You can also check for yourself if a car has a current MOT, tax and insurance online, however you must be privy to the insurance to view that, legally.

Regards Nick.

Jim, That always used to be the case, but with the advent of Continuous Insurance Enforcement in 2012 (2013??) That insurance check at the point of taxation was removed, both at PO and on-line.

Yes you are legally required to have insurance when you use/tax the vehicle under CIE rules, but the check is done differently.
The insurance certificate is still required, and checked, checked at Post Offices in Northern Ireland. and MOTs are still electronically checked on-line and paper ones required at Post Offices.

It's all explained HERE 

As far as I can remember, this proposal was implemented, but I seem to have lost the bookmarked page as to when and under which bit of legislation. Please double check for yourself, before relying on what I've typed.

I think enforcement is now carried out by a regular data scrape, comparing MID with non-SORNed vehicles.

Unfortunately one of the consequences of this Government/DVLA cost saving measure (reducing a duplicated insurance check), is that the reminder to renew ones insurance whilst paying Vehicle Excise Duty, VED, is no longer present.

Obviously many folks renewed insurance at the same date as VED, as it was often related to when you bought the car. Trying to tax it before the end of the relevant month, but having it rejected, as the insurance was about to run out, has saved many people inadvertently driving uninsured.

Now you only find out when the fine comes through the post, or worse, you get stopped whilst actually driving, and awarded 6 points and a fine. Many people have found this out to their cost, when an insurance renewal has been forgotten or failed for some reason.

With the greatest respect to all on this forum , if anyone here is effectively going to offer, what amounts to legal advice, we must be able to show it is correct and ideally link to the original source.

Bill

p.s. Despite the title of the thread, the length and depth of it, clearly shows it wasn't a "Dumb Question" at all Mark.  

Edited By peak4 on 31/08/2019 20:38:27

Edited By peak4 on 31/08/2019 20:46:50

Hi Bill, when I re-taxed my car just last month online a pop up came up to say that MOT and insurance checks were OK.

Regards Nick.

Bill,

The DVLA do check if an MOT and insurance are in place.

I would trust the online check over a post office employee any day of the week.

Jim