Crap vee blocks and "Oxford Precision"?

I think it's a shame this conversation even exists. Thirty years ago, you could be fairly confident that what you bought was fit for purpose. Now the culture seems to be keep exchanging until you get a good one. Chisels and screwdrivers were made from decent steel. Any equipment that was assembled or adjusted by machine screws had machine screws not made of cheese. Products were generally built to last regardless of what market they were intended for. I know the argument is you get what you pay for but the default position is that the buyer should EXPECT less than stellar products. I disagree. The price makes the product competitive. It should not be an excuse for accepting poor products. Again thirty years ago, if something was even remotely below par, people would take it back to the retailer. Now people advocate just junking it and putting it down to experience. I've seen cheap lathes from respectable retailers that have wonderful finish on the bits you can see and shoddy finish on the bits (which still need to be functional) you can't. I find this deceitful although there is sufficient wriggle room to allow the manufacturer to "get away with it". On the same note, I wonder how much stuff simply gets junked because the buyer can't be bothered to go through the hassle of complaining. Again, a case of the manufacturer getting away with it. I confess to not even having a point to make about the subject because the world is what it is other than to say there is a very real pleasure in using good quality second hand equipment without the stress of "no confidence" that some new tools bring with them.

Like the Winfield lathes ? The Pooles and the Sooper Adapts of this world ?

Even the Myford ML1's to 5's were adulterated junk

Problem is the people who buy items of e-bay or Aliexpress for a few quid direct from country of manufacture do find it easier to bin it than send it back as postage alone would be more than they paid for the item.

Unfortunately they then assume all stuff from the same part of the world is below par.

What this thread has shown is that the OP won't be getting a better item by buying "Oxford" brand than he would get if he went to ARC and bought their equivalent for half the price. At least ARC are open about where their goods come from and don't try to dress them up with a once respected name and charge a premium for doing so.( Stevenson named products excepted)

J

Frankly ground to within 0.001" on all faces and matched for around £13, seems a bit ridiculous to expect amazement from them. They probably couldn't give a toss if it's 0.1mm taper in full length.

Michael W

I have been more than happy with my purchases from ARC/Chronos etc. I spent my working life as a toolmaker and still have quality tools from 50 years ago. Now nearing 70 and using my machinery as a hobby the quality for the money is good. I no longer need stuff to achieve super accuracy or last another 50 years.

I think there's a big element of rose-tinted glasses about what you could buy 30 or 40 years ago, certainly on the DIY market. Across hand tools and test equipment I recall a huge range in quality from excellent to utter 'use it once' crap. Obviously most of the crud ended up in the bin years ago, so now we only see the better stuff.

I also think most buyers were too deferential to return anything back in those days.

Neil

Had the internet and the forums been around 30 years ago, perhaps things would have been more transparent.

Ketan at ARC.

I think that one of the issues is that with the advent of the internet, it is so easy to price compare.

Secondly, there is so much choice now, again because of the internet, and more importantly easy access to what you want to purchase. One click and it is yours.

I was talking to someone the other day, and we were discussing how, if you wanted to buy a piece of machinery 30 years ago, your choice was probably limited primarily to who advertised in Exchange and Mart, and you would rush down to the shop as soon as it opened to get the latest copy, to try and steal a march on anyone else.

Photographs of what you wanted to potentially purchase prior to the advent of digital cameras, email and smartphones? No chance, you had to get in your car and go look at it.

That coupled with the fact that there has been a change in buying perspective over the last 30 years or so, because so many people now buy solely based on price, i.e. the cheapest, and it is no wonder there is such a huge choice from the far east and India these days.

The problem is that people expect Moore & Wright and Eclipse etc (UK produced items quality) at far east prices.

It ain't gonna happen.

It seems that all sorts of prejudices are creeping in to this topic. I really cannot get my head around it. We should all be aware that old British tradenames have been sold off when the company closes. Look at Alba and Bush in electrical goods. They both produced half decent products. Today they represent the bottom of the market and made presumably in China.

The answer to this topic is really quite simple. Buy from a reputable dealer who provides the appropriate quality and service, at a price you are prepared to pay! Simple as that. If you buy from Ebay at knock down prices you will invariably get a knock down product.

Once you have found the right dealer, then stick with them. I am a returnee to the hobby and I have found that ARC meet my requirements. I am sure there are other noteworthy dealers, but I am not going to risk it.

I have one other observation about Indian products. I am an aeromodeller who loves diesel engines. There is an Indian company by the name of Sharma, who manufacture model diesel engines as a sideline. Their build quality is absolutely outstanding. Now I am not sure what their main line of business is, but if they make tooling, then it is probably of equally superb quality!

Andrew.

Edited By Andrew Tinsley on 27/06/2017 16:52:24

Someone remarked about the chisels and screwdrivers of 30 years ago. I can relate to that ! I still have some chisels which belonged to my father [I,m now 78 ] The steel in those chisels could take an edge like a razor,and hold it. What about the crap on offer today,from well known brand names? The less said about it,the better. You cannot get a sharp edge on them no matter how hard you try. Plane irons are no better,so it,s not all wishful thinking about the old days. Yes,there was some junk,but if you bought a good brand name,you were fairly safe,alas,no longer. Some of the replacement tools I bought with well known names are nothing short of rubbish,I could buy just as good in ALDI for half the price,and have done.

Good products will always have a market but perhaps not big enough to satisfy the makers,so they start making junk,then they go bust.

Someone else remarked on the quality and finish on some of the machines on sale, tell me about it ! The cast iron used in some of these machines is little better than sand [try drilling it ],and the quality of the machine screws used is beond words. I had to replace most of them on my lathe.

Sad to say,that seems to be the way things are going,it seems to be a case of "Buy them,use them,dump them "

if you want a piece of kit made to an accuracy of .0005"/.0002" etc. & know how to check it & use it in a meaningful way I'm sure it is available at a cost, the phrase 'precision' means bugger all.

Tony

The word 'precision' is probably used more than eBay than 'barn find'!

Can we work out in which decade exactly the best tools and materials were available? Chris suggests 1987.

Trouble is, looking at Model Engineer for 1987 you find many denunciations of the poor quality. In 1987, chaps thought quality had gone down the drain since the Fifties. That would be OK except, you've guessed it, ME's Post Bag in 1957 has people complaining that quality hasn't been any good since before the second war. And, looking at what chaps said in the 1920's one finds strong opinion that quality pretty much disappeared before the Great War

Switching from ME to 'Engineer' on Graces Guide, it's not all that difficult to find exactly the same story going back deep into the 19th century. For boiler making Electrolytic copper is inferior to smelted copper because smelted copper has Gold in it, yeah right. Mild steel is cheap rubbish compared with Wrought Iron. Modern iron plate (in 1880) 'shatters like glass' compared with the wonderful stuff used to build ships in the 1850's. Well before Bessemer and Siemens, Wrought Iron was rubbish compared with cast iron. And before that, iron was inferior to Brass. Throughout the years, nothing lasts like it used to.

Judging by published contemporary accounts there's strong evidence is that tools and materials have been going steadily downhill since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Even nostalgia ain't what it used to be. This well documented perception of decline cannot be true. If it were, our houses would be lit by tallow dips, water would come from a well, we would share a Necessary House with the neighbours, and we would walk to the workhouse to have limbs amputated.

There is one thing that was much better 30 years ago. You and I. I think feeling that the world is falling apart is mostly due to ageing. As we start to fall apart, we naturally remember happier days. It wasn't the tools, politics, jobs and entertainments that were better in our youth, it was us.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 27/06/2017 17:27:39

I've had a brainwave.

Look out for Stub Mandrel(TM) CCFC inserts coming your way soon. (CF stands for chipped flint).

Neil

I thought they were OEM on the Adept

Are chipped flint inserts knapped flint ones that you have broken the cutting edge off of?

Edited By JasonB on 27/06/2017 18:44:25

Oh hear ye the words of wisdom from he who calls himself "Silly old duffer",friend Dave ! How right you are.

It,s no secret that the quality of tools has declined over the years,but so has the price. I remember looking in Woolworts stores in the 1950,s [anyone still remember them ? ] A 1/4 " electric drill cost £3,my wages at the time was £2,1&6.,so it was no-go. Young people today have a lot more choice,and at a far more attractive price.The stuff may not be as good,but at least they can get a start and then move up to better quality,if they can find it.

Would I go back to the days of the hacksaw and the hand file and leave aside my good old band saw and my cheap angle grinder,I dont think so ! I,ve been there,done that,bought the tee shirt.

Knapped is too advanced a technology. Chipped bits off teh ground will be much better.

The decline in the quality of sexy ladies on the silver screen is well known too. Two-ton Tessie O'Shea may have been hot stuff when I were a lad but she couldn't hold a candle to that Theda Bara, woof woof...

Back to the 'good old days'.

Televisions that needed to warm up for ages then the picture rolled and needed twiddling of knobs or a whack on a known spot on the case to stop, oh yes and a choice of two or three channels.

Radios that whistled and squawked at you, and could drift off tune for no apparent reason.

Repairs to the above technologies were usually expensive and fairly frequent.

Torch Batteries that lasted about halfway home from school in winter.

Cheap toys with weak springs.

Masonary 'drills' you whacked with a club hammer whilst turning by hand, then had to regrind the burrs from end you were hitting after a few holes.

Rewirable fuses that somebody had invariably put thicker wire into which stopped them blowing (no fused plugs), until something further down the line 'popped' instead.

Let's not forget that there was still plenty of poor quaity equipment about as well, as my Grandfather (who died in the 1960s) frequently said "always remember you don't get out for nowt lad".

Enough of this rant, ye gods I really am getting old!

Edited By V8Eng on 28/06/2017 00:00:57

I am pleased that this thread has generated a varied input on the pertinent matter of basic tooling/accessory quality.

Sort of on topic; does anyone else dabble in amateur astronomy? Now that is definitely a hobby where the bang per buck (even since the 1990s) really has sky rocketed - pardon the pun! For a modest outlay once can now take images that rival some of the famous Hubble images from a back garden. What is there not to love about physics??!!

I suppose I struggle to shake off prejudice against unbranded tooling, stemming from the couple of times I've given it the benefit of the doubt in the past. Both times I wished I hadn't bothered. Though I do look forward to getting acquainted with Arc's products in due course.