Recognising tooling quality levels?

Could it be that we are expecting too much from cheap machines. I days gone by a mill was a rarity in a home workshop and a Myford was considered to be the Rolls Royce of lathes at our sizes. I would suggest that when precision was required it was obtained by more long winded techniques than using super precision machines. Has turning between centers fallen out of favor because collets are affordable and we moan about chuck run-outs because we have forgotten how to make a split collet. Filing is a dying art as is lapping and scraping as we all want to take the short cuts to the finished item. Most of the hobby or trade quality stuff on the market will do the job you ask of it but if you want toolroom or let alone inspection grade accuracy you are going to have to put that in yourself and spend some effort. We can either just buy industry standard machines or do what home machinists have always done and use our skills whilst rejoicing at the hugely increased range of kit we can afford which was not available to those who went before us.

regards Martin

This discussion is getting about as fertile as a Harley Davidson owner telling an MZ owner why he needs to upgrade...

Neil

[Always wanted to upgrade to an MZ250 ...My little Suzi GP125 wasn't much cop & then it spat bits of the big end bearing out of the exhaust. The day before my test. I was overjoyed.]

So. In an attempt to pull the thread back on course:

If the accuracy of the work is reasonable (ie +/- 1mm in my book), then any general metalworking type place should sell stuff that will be good enough. I'd advise against the generalist places like Screwfix/Tool Station, and go for ones more like Axminster/Machine Mart. As has been mentioned before, CTC Tools in Hong Kong is good. I was recommended them by a gent living in Dublin (someone who is the John Stevenson equivalent of pen makers), and have never had cause to complain with the quality - it is at least as good as any work I could hope to produce and it's my skill, not the tooling, that will drive quality down.

Regards,

Richard.

Good point Martin. I was trying to point out that things don't really need to be as they are. Myforfd's actually can be very very good in all respects if in decent order and adjusted correctly. It seems I am the only person that ever asked for a replacement super 7 spindle. They decided to make a few. It was interesting to talk to them. I explained that if I was to scrape the cone back in I needed something that was definitely correct. Also had problems with rust in the morse taper and elsewhere which was the main reason. They couldn't understand why there were lathes about that were worn enough to cause problems as they had 30 odd year old lathes that were still fine - even ML7's.

I was trained as a toolmaker often working to ridiculous limits, even turning up plug gauges rather than having them ground. It can be done with a good lathe that is in excellent order. This particular lathe was a DSG. I've also made V blocks on a horizontal miller that didn't show any improvement following grinding. I was also asked to machine some 6ft long machine ways on a very large miller hoping to avoid grinding. Trouble was the table deflected by a couple of thou at full stretch. This was a very large hefty powerful vertical miller. Big tables on millers are a mixed blessing depending on what some one wants to do with them.

I went into design rather than tool making but one person went into the tool room and asked to work on the lathes. First job that came up he had to go to the stores and ask for a mic. Everybody burst out laughing as people could work to the expected accuracy with a 6in rule. Many things made in a tool room finish up being hardened and ground. Finish within reason doesn't matter for the same reason so bearing wear doesn't matter. Large tool rooms might have a lathe about that is hardly if ever used - to make stuff for other machines when they need it. This is all a lot of businesses will expect from a lathe so why bother keeping it in adjustment or even lubricating it regularly. There are smaller shops about still that are entirely different and have to squeeze the last drops of accuracy out of their machines. They sell on when worn past some point. I know of a technical college that did this and also sold machines to model engineers now and again if they asked. The man set up his 5 Colchesters, turned the suds on and had them all turning for 1/2 hr. The model engineer got the one that showed the worst signs of bearing wear. Happy man as he could do far worse elsewhere and got a decent machine at a reasonable cost. From the colleges point of view they spent less buying a replacement than waiting until the machine was unusable for their use and selling to a dealer. They pay peanuts.

Rambling and pointless maybe to some but this explains why some machines are as they are. Used machine tool dealers can be something of a dodgy lot. I've come across some real jokers especially at the model engineer end. Same on new ones too but maybe they have improved but frankly by the look of them I doubt it.

East / West. Some time ago the east did turn out a number of decent lathes at reasonably cost. Millers too. Fact. I understand there were even some Indian Myford clones about at one point that people were very happy with. Before my time. Indian tooling started disappearing around the time I started buying. Going on complaints about Indian microscopes though - would that be a good idea ............ don't know.

John

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Neil,

Sacrilege !!

I'll have you know that 95% of all Harleys ever made are still on the road.

.

The other 5% did eventually make it home.

Edited By John Stevenson on 24/06/2015 16:12:31

That may be the case but 1200cc Bandits are much more fun to ride. Great bikes if the valves are adjusted every now and again - bit like lathes, well some of them.

Trouble is too far past 50 really I realised that I probably don't bounce too well any more so it had to go before some idiot arranged for me to find out.

John

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Well I'm quite happy to stick with my mostly far eastern tooling and machines from the likes of Warco, Chronos, ARC etc. I can make aero engines that will happily buzz away at 9000rpm with no seal, gaskets or piston rings, the slower running Hit & Miss engines all seem to make good compression and run first time, the steam engines will tick over smoothly with out even moving the needle on the pressure gauge so why would I want any more?

Having said that I have just had another casting kit delivered today from the US and unusually for ME drawings it does give tolerances on the drawing. I'm wondering if I may need to upgrade some of my kit, whay do others think?

Would the proprietor be ex-Ferrari bodyshop, perchance?

I've deleted a few posts referring to past misdemeanours that are best not dug up again.

That includes those by folk who rose to the bait.

Neil

I suspect that to turn to fractions of a thou it will be necessary to master sharpening and setting the tool to a high standard, if using insert tooling the selection of tip and setting will still be important. The performance of a machine can be maximised in the hands of a skilled user. The old saying "a bad workman blames his tools" can often be true. A lathe of the highest quality may not deliver work of the highest standard unless the operator masters the setup of the machine and the material being turned. We all need to understand the limitations of the machine aswell as the limitations of the operator to get the best of our equipment.

Mike

It seems like i may unknowingly and unintentionally have sailed close to re-igniting a few smouldering brush fires Neil. My apologies.

To be fair i'm not looking for ultimate precision at all - at least not in any general sense. Nor am i looking for production type longevity. I am though looking to get into a position to identify stuff that will do a straightforward machining job to reasonable general jobbing shop levels of accuracy for a reasonable period of time - bearing in mind the equipment i'm running.

The market is the problem - it's a mess. If it was possible to buy stuff and rely that it did what it said on the tin/was implied by sellers then most of the issues would disappear.

Hard experience suggests that once it's in your shop that no matter what the paperwork you're stuck with it - with minimal comeback unless you have the time and money to hand to play hardball. So getting it right up front is the only realistic option.

contd - it think too many words

Edited By Ian Maybury on 24/06/2015 22:02:54

contd

The trouble is that I haven't got five years or the budget to spend finding out the hard way what works, and what doesn't - to become a pundit/holder of the sacred mysteries. I have a budget, need to set up the mill and then get on with my woodworking.

The Chinese by taking us at our word/actions have thoroughly messed up the old status quo. They don't at the lower end play the Western game where the customer gets to press indefinitely for ever cheaper stuff, but the makers remains on the hook to deliver decent quality.

They by all acounts will make a 5p tool if that's what you want, or equally happily a £50 tool. The re-seller will likely claim both to be xyz - or will at least not explicitly state the differences.

It's very educational in one way, in that they seem to simply reflect back to us what we claim to want. The old saying that 'the worst thing that can happen to a person is that their greatest wish comes true' comes to mind.

Edited By Ian Maybury on 24/06/2015 22:05:02

Ian,

You believe what you wish to believe. That is your prerogative.

In my opinion, I feel that you are simply wrong in your understating of the metalworking commercial or hobby market. Metalworking hobby market is not in a mess. It is just your thinking that it is because you are unable to get clear answers, which needs to be taken into consideration.

If you are talking woodworking, this is the wrong forum for you to get the answers you seek.

If you are seeking answers to metalworking issues, perhaps you would do better by considering a positive approach rather than continuously bad mouthing sellers and product origin. I get that you don't want cheap Chinese. That is fine. Why keep going on about it? You have been given options for alternatives, so best get on with those.

This is of course my opinion, in the same way as you are entitled to yours.

Ketan at ARC.

I'm sorry Ketan, but i'm pushing no belief whatsoever - but i do for reasons i'm unaware of seem to be inadvertently ruffling your feathers. I have absolutely no axe to grind with you or your business.

I've gone to considerable trouble to try to honestly describe what based on my experience to date seems may be the possible situation in the market.

I'm more than happy to use Chinese product, and the cheaper the better provided it does the job it's bought for - i've just proved it by buying the mill drill.

I've also however been down the road several times of buying Eastern made stuff that in very simple terms was junk - despite it's billing.

I also run some Chinese stuff which while it's definitely made down to a price and didn't conform to what had become the norm in terms of Western quality expectations hasn't been at all bad once de-bugged.

I have had Japanese made stuff of exquisite quality too - which didn't cost an arm and a leg.

You seem to be frantically resisting the possibility that there's possibly a continuum ranging from good (in the terms i'm trying to describe) and not so good in the ranges offered by yourselves, and by the other sellers listed.

I've no problem with that (if in fact its the case), but as above am trying to establish some reference points to figure at what level i need to buy. I can for example buy ER chuck and collets in everything from DIN spec, tight runout hardened and ground from an industrial supplier, to stuff claiming tolerances and hardening but with no spec, to nondescript no spec, no tolerance and probably minimally if at all hardened material. The latter may be fine for what i want, but seems likely to be risky.

If you're adamant that your entire product line is top quality/above the threshold i'm trying to describe then by all means - pitch the necessary undertakings and we'll go from there...

Thank you again for the help guys, i think it's to a fair degree clarified my mind. Time for me to sign off.

ian

I feel you are wrong to blame the Chinese for the problems Ian. True in some quarters they do have a reputation for providing excellent samples and even first production runs and junk there after but I don't think this applies to the sector that is under discussion providing things are bought from well known sources.

I suspect the real problem goes like this. Some large scale importer wants to make the lathe bigger and better. Sorry I go on about lathes but they are classic examples. Say it has 18in between centres, adequate for many really but they ask for it to be increased to 20in. The supplier could make the bed 2 in longer at a cost. They could chop 2in of the tail stock. That is a much cheaper option, just saw 2in off the pattern or block off a mould. The importer is aiming to sell at a set price so which would you go for in the same position? I'm not talking small scale importers here I'm talking ones that buy in numbers that are significant to the supplier. Once it's done everybody else gets the same. Later the same people might want to get an even larger centre distance - the head gets thinner.

I'm not going to rabbit on about more recent thinking on specification and marketing and problems as a result. It would come as shock to many people who expect to get what they have apparently paid for. Things haven't been that simple for a long time. And don't I know it, 39 years with the automotive industry. There is a chance as well that Chinese marketing people think the same way.

It all leaves many retailers in an odd position. People want them so they sell them. My only feeling on that score is that certain sellers are clearly rather synical about it all. On the other hand it's understandable that in general they may not want to tell customers about any problems with a product.

There can be other problems too. A couple of years ago one retailer was asking me why they had problems with a certain type of collet holder. They had done their best and had them produced by an aero space company and it didn't work out. Many complaints. This is different type of problem. Poorly conceived and based on a need rather than reality and in truth due to accuracy needs it's doubtful if any one could achieve even low production rates. Customers expect collet performance though - its' a collet holder and does hold collets. I find that hard to accept because to me the idea had it's advantages but clearly could have problems working as some one would expect collets to work. Maybe they are sorted now but some how I doubt it. This doesn't mean they are useless, just not as good as the real thing.

John

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What you say John makes perfect sense to me regarding what could be termed 'spec inflation'. The problem as you say is that engineering is a reality based and hard taskmaster. Stuff either is or isn't what it claims to be. If it's to be cheaper some smart design, materials or manufacturing improvement has to be made - or else the quality and performance will likely suffer.

I wasn't actually blaming the Chinese - more making the point that when we get what we (as customers or business managers) think we want it's not necessarily going to deliver a happy outcome.

The problem in keeping with the above is that if buyers keep on blindly pushing for lower prices, importers do the same but are less than forthcoming on product differences, and manufacturers adopt a ' wnatever you want boss' attitude - and none keeps the eye on the ball that is the little matter of quality and performance then only one outcome is possible.

This is the theoretical or risk scenario - i'm not trying to push a blanket view here. I'm in fact fervently hoping that a few knowledgeable souls will stand up and say that if you buy above xyz level from the likes of abc that reasonable quality is to be expected. (this seems to be what's coming through, but it's far from loud and clear)

It certainly makes sense there should be at least a few players in the market who know their tooling, are not just run by suits, and understand that retaining customers requires not p******g them off on their first purchase by delivering junk.

Against that i've been caught more than enough times in recent years, and seen enough businesses push sub standard stock into the market because they can't afford to wait for another delivery to readily accept bland assurances that noooooooo… that never happens here….

ian

Ian,

I have read this thread with interest, and; although your "Mission" is amirable, I don't think there is much hope of a definitive answer to the question.

The biggest problem [and this relates to your observation regarding the relentless push for lower prices] is that there are batch-to-batch differences between supposedly similar components. The "Manufacturers" [sic] subcontract most of the work, and the levels of supply-chain management are inadequate.

When I worked in the 'Aerospace' industry, we had full traceability [all the way back to the mine where the ore was found] ... but this inevitably comes at a price.

The use of ISO9001 accredited supply chains should help you ... but I fear that there is a lot of 'lip-service' being paid to the admirable principles of that system.

Please; If you do find a supplier of consistently good tooling, at affordable prices, tell the rest of us!

MichaelG.

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P.S. ... One closing thought: Of the many 'Model Engineering' suppliers who could contribute to this forum, only ArcEuroTrade and CuP seem to do so with any enthusiasm.

Ian,

You are building a huge critical case against companies that you have not done business with and the entire thing is hypothetical.

You can't group companies into tolerance bands like you would reamers or bearings.

Experience shows that the vast majority of name suppliers to the metalworking hobby understand their business comes from repeat customers and that nothing is more valuable to them then a good reputation.

Read their product specs carefully and email them if you aren't sure. If their product doesn't perform to the promised standard, then I am sure they will refund or replace.

My worry, however, is that you are effectively setting a bear trap, with little thought of who might fall in it. Is it the retailer who sells you something over the net, whose spot-on cutter won't meet your requirements because your mill is not accurate enough, or the forum member who says XYZ are a good company but their product doesn't meet the standards you expect?

You need to relax and start enjoying your hobby and choosing and judging your purchases by the standard 'will it do what I need it to do'?

Neil

XYZ are a good company.

**LINK**

Martin

One thing I wonder about lathes in the UK is where are the bench lathes like this one

**LINK**

There has been others even cheaper none geared head. It's interesting to read the reviews - they mention results. Never found any in the UK. The 0.002 - 0.003 between centres could easily be fixed and the machine may not have been installed correctly. I'd hope it had a hardened prismatic bed. Might turn out that it has 2 flat rails - nvg. Generally though it looks pretty sane and as I have said there has been others and probably still is.

John

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