Member postings for Ian Maybury

Sorry guys - I meant to properly say thank you to those that contributed on this thread - it has actually been very helpful at the level of filling in a general view of the nature of the market.

It's a pity (clear as to why - but actually daft and i suspect highly negative for everybody in the field, especially for users and those taking care to offer well specified product) that it's apparently deemed not feasible to openly discuss product performance specifics on a user forum.

It's become clear however that there's a definite and to say the least impractically low threshold beyond which it's not seen as being wise to go. I'm at a loss as to why it should it be inappropriate for a private user of a particular tool or machine to describe his/her own experience. If it's negative but not typical then there's lots of experience elsewhere that suggests that there will be others ready to pile in to set the record straight. Either way one opinion is only that.

I should say that there can't be a problem with openly offering product at whatever level there is a market for - it doesn't all have to be high end/professional/industrial quality stuff.

There's a lot more that in the general sense that could be said, especially regarding the little matter of stakeholder and especially contributor input to moderator policies on the many user forums about these days. That however is for another day….

Thanks again guys.

ian

Ta for the link Martin, but just in case - I clearly used the terms xyz and abc as a way of referring to hypothetical companies in general. Not to refer to any specific organisation.

Having little or no experience in it I have no view as to the situation regarding the levels of product offerings in the hobby metalworking tooling market. Hard experience in the related woodworking tools market suggests however that the well worn principle of 'buyer beware' may be as applicable there as anywhere else.

I'm at a loss Neil as to how to seeking some feedback guidance from private users on how to select suitable tooling to satisfy a given level of requirement on an enthusiast forum amounts to setting a bear trap - I thought that would be one of its basic functions.

As before I'm off - there seems little point in trying to push a rock up what for whatever reason is a very steep hill...

ian

What you say John makes perfect sense to me regarding what could be termed 'spec inflation'. The problem as you say is that engineering is a reality based and hard taskmaster. Stuff either is or isn't what it claims to be. If it's to be cheaper some smart design, materials or manufacturing improvement has to be made - or else the quality and performance will likely suffer.

I wasn't actually blaming the Chinese - more making the point that when we get what we (as customers or business managers) think we want it's not necessarily going to deliver a happy outcome.

The problem in keeping with the above is that if buyers keep on blindly pushing for lower prices, importers do the same but are less than forthcoming on product differences, and manufacturers adopt a ' wnatever you want boss' attitude - and none keeps the eye on the ball that is the little matter of quality and performance then only one outcome is possible.

This is the theoretical or risk scenario - i'm not trying to push a blanket view here. I'm in fact fervently hoping that a few knowledgeable souls will stand up and say that if you buy above xyz level from the likes of abc that reasonable quality is to be expected. (this seems to be what's coming through, but it's far from loud and clear)

It certainly makes sense there should be at least a few players in the market who know their tooling, are not just run by suits, and understand that retaining customers requires not p******g them off on their first purchase by delivering junk.

Against that i've been caught more than enough times in recent years, and seen enough businesses push sub standard stock into the market because they can't afford to wait for another delivery to readily accept bland assurances that noooooooo… that never happens here….

ian

I'm sorry Ketan, but i'm pushing no belief whatsoever - but i do for reasons i'm unaware of seem to be inadvertently ruffling your feathers. I have absolutely no axe to grind with you or your business.

I've gone to considerable trouble to try to honestly describe what based on my experience to date seems may be the possible situation in the market.

I'm more than happy to use Chinese product, and the cheaper the better provided it does the job it's bought for - i've just proved it by buying the mill drill.

I've also however been down the road several times of buying Eastern made stuff that in very simple terms was junk - despite it's billing.

I also run some Chinese stuff which while it's definitely made down to a price and didn't conform to what had become the norm in terms of Western quality expectations hasn't been at all bad once de-bugged.

I have had Japanese made stuff of exquisite quality too - which didn't cost an arm and a leg.

You seem to be frantically resisting the possibility that there's possibly a continuum ranging from good (in the terms i'm trying to describe) and not so good in the ranges offered by yourselves, and by the other sellers listed.

I've no problem with that (if in fact its the case), but as above am trying to establish some reference points to figure at what level i need to buy. I can for example buy ER chuck and collets in everything from DIN spec, tight runout hardened and ground from an industrial supplier, to stuff claiming tolerances and hardening but with no spec, to nondescript no spec, no tolerance and probably minimally if at all hardened material. The latter may be fine for what i want, but seems likely to be risky.

If you're adamant that your entire product line is top quality/above the threshold i'm trying to describe then by all means - pitch the necessary undertakings and we'll go from there...

Thank you again for the help guys, i think it's to a fair degree clarified my mind. Time for me to sign off.

ian

contd

The trouble is that I haven't got five years or the budget to spend finding out the hard way what works, and what doesn't - to become a pundit/holder of the sacred mysteries. I have a budget, need to set up the mill and then get on with my woodworking.

The Chinese by taking us at our word/actions have thoroughly messed up the old status quo. They don't at the lower end play the Western game where the customer gets to press indefinitely for ever cheaper stuff, but the makers remains on the hook to deliver decent quality.

They by all acounts will make a 5p tool if that's what you want, or equally happily a £50 tool. The re-seller will likely claim both to be xyz - or will at least not explicitly state the differences.

It's very educational in one way, in that they seem to simply reflect back to us what we claim to want. The old saying that 'the worst thing that can happen to a person is that their greatest wish comes true' comes to mind.

Edited By Ian Maybury on 24/06/2015 22:05:02

It seems like i may unknowingly and unintentionally have sailed close to re-igniting a few smouldering brush fires Neil. My apologies.

To be fair i'm not looking for ultimate precision at all - at least not in any general sense. Nor am i looking for production type longevity. I am though looking to get into a position to identify stuff that will do a straightforward machining job to reasonable general jobbing shop levels of accuracy for a reasonable period of time - bearing in mind the equipment i'm running.

The market is the problem - it's a mess. If it was possible to buy stuff and rely that it did what it said on the tin/was implied by sellers then most of the issues would disappear.

Hard experience suggests that once it's in your shop that no matter what the paperwork you're stuck with it - with minimal comeback unless you have the time and money to hand to play hardball. So getting it right up front is the only realistic option.

contd - it think too many words

Edited By Ian Maybury on 24/06/2015 22:02:54

PS Thanks for the Eastern options Dave. Mailing costs are a b*** from the UK. Will do some checking out.

I've been buying woodworking tools direct from Japan (also some from Germany), and find it costs less to ship than from the UK in either case. Prices can be very good too - savings of maybe 50% compared to UK.

ian

I'd not anticipate working to very tight tolerances Richard (i have a snoopervisory cat too by the way), and suspect your 'work' scenario won't be far off. Not sure though - in that who knows where having light milling and maybe in a while turning capability will bring me. (it's anyway overlap hobby and commercial)

It's a little difficult to discuss the issues meaningfully at this very general level. My perception though is that first off the ZX30M isn't a high precision machine anyway - although i've been pleasantly surprised at the moderate runout in the spindle. (bit over half a thou)

On tooling my big concern relates to ability to get the job done at all - so much of the eastern made woodworking stuff just doesn't work. (say it's quality D) Brad point drills or Forstner bits are a simple case in point. They can be so bad that they flat don't cut at all or only intermittently or with tearing - because the grinding of the cutting edges is way off. Made from material so soft that the tool will be destroyed in minutes if used.

Next up might be stuff that's fairly functional (say C), but the quality just isn't in the material and the fineness in the sharpening for them to cut really well - or last long. i've had a big box of twist drills in this space (good box store quality perhaps) - they drill quite nicely in softer materials, but a bit of abuse by way of speed or a bit of slightly tougher material wipes the edge off immediately. Good quality hardened and ground HSS stuff not only cuts much better than this - it handles and feels different too. The steel rings rather than producing a dull clink when tapped on a surface.

Going up again to something like Famag HSS-G brad points or Forstners (say B) costs maybe x5 or even x10 compared to box store/budget, but the brads for example are incredibly finely finished, obviously hard as nails and so sharp as to need careful handling to avoid cut fingers. They will cut a circle one ply thick out of the top layer on cheap ply without even a hint of tearing, and have been working regulary for several years now and are still very sharp. Leitz saw blades for example (not their budget ones, but a grade or two up -finer carbide) are also in this sort of territory, and have an excellent sharpening service.

It's hard to generalise, but for sure there's stuff above this again. (say A) Much more expensive. Perhaps using carbides, superabrasives etc to give production type longevity, but likely getting specialised enough that it requires a powerful machine tool set up to appropriate depths of cut etc to get the best out of it. Probably not suited to general/jobbing work.

I seem to find myself always needing to buy high end jobbing stuff capable of working to the required standard (i'm very picky), but not necessarily with production longevity - probably quality B, getting by on minimum C in a few less demanding situations. i.e. I'll tolerate needing to take it a bit slower sometimes, but will accept no compromise in terms of ability to work to the highest std. (doesn't stop me screwing up)

Please pardon all the palaver - the problem is the need to often buy mail order unseen off websites and the like. I agree 100% Dave that given the time and the opportunity to handle most of the options at shows that the differences would (mostly) be apparent. Buying at auctions and the like can clearly work too (not many here though), but it's time consuming.

To pitch a very basic calibration question. There's outfits all over the place catering to hobby machinists and the like - people like RDG, Warco, ARC, Axminster, Chronos etc. My impression is that they do cost effective stuff. They often have price point options within their ranges - it's possible to pay x2 or x3 for a name branded machine vise for example. Still not expensive compared to a big brand industrial model - go to even a volume industrial tooling outfit like MSC and it's possible to spend a lot more..

Guess i'm wondering if the better/more expensive end tooling and accessories done by hobby/light professional oriented companies like those i've listed makes it to quality level B, or maybe high C as above?

ian

There has to be a sprinkling of people around in ireland that are into engineering Neil, there's a club in Dublin and another in the North of ireland. Will do some digging.

One of the issues is that engineering manufacturing was never mainstream. It was gathering momentum quite nicely by the 70s, but of late much as in the UK everything is made in the East and most younger people are focused more towards high tech, farming, food, service business and the like.

Sounds like it's going to be a case of taking it steadily. The RS route is definitely a little on the rich side for me. They have even started refusing orders under €15 here, or had last time i looked...

Thank you for the views guys, and keep it coming. Meant in the nicest possible way, but I guess the replies confirm the issue we all face. Perhaps the answer too - that short of buying higher dollar and standards based product there's not much way around the issue other than hands on familiarity with suppliers and their products. (experience)

Which is always a problem when suppliers are distant, and shipping costs significant. Seems like the plan must be to avoid rock bottom pricing, and to go for standards where possible - but avoiding the high end production quality stuff.

I should say that most of what i buy has to come from the UK, the US or Germany - the market here is tiny, and is industrial. We don't have the tradition of hobby engineering, and consequently it's extremely difficult to find knowledgeable individuals to talk to over a pint.

Guess i'd hoped somebody would pipe up and say that of the high profile hobby engineering supply places W is good, A is good, X is cheap and not so good etc. - but fear of liability has to be a concern. Maybe it's not that simple anyway.

It's a question of requirements. It's got to work properly, but it doesn't necessarily have to handle 8 hr shifts day in day out. Trouble is it's possible to get really burned. How about a long series brad point bit it was possible to bend by hand to tie a knot in without it breaking? The tip was randomly touched to a grinder - certainly not sharpened.

The ZX 30 is just up and running. The alignments are still to be checked out, but the spindle is decently accurate at around 0.0005in runout., and the tables seem (pending testing) decent. Everything works, it runs quite smoothly - but finishes are a little rough, materials probably a little soft and it was riddled with assembly errors and omissions. Fortunately nothing that wasn't fairly easily fixed. So far not a wonder, but pretty reasonable at the price point...

Hi all. I'm an occasional looker in with a primary focus in precision woodworking (boxes, small cabinets and the like) - but as a hands on engineer engineer have some background as a general machinist, in tool room management and in engineered product R&D.

Having started to gear up on the machining side one issue i'm running into is to separate the good from the not so good from the junk. Especially in the case of tooling.

Hard experience with junk Eastern stuff suggests the need for care (that quality can't be assumed), but against that limited budget.

So far i've bought an Axminster ZX 30M round column mill drill - bearing in mind that it's also to cover woodworking drilling and some slotting tasks where the pretty large work envelope is important. Lots of small assembly type problems, but actually not so bad in terms of alignments and tolerances. A smallish lathe may follow before too long.

What's bothering me is that there's perhaps half a dozen mainstream suppliers selling Eastern made tooling based on unsubstantiated claims - but there's very little tangible about to tell what's good, and what's not. Everything from milling cutters, to vices, turntables, drills, centres, parallels, angle plates etc.

Living in Ireland the option to visit suppliers is limited, and i'd rather not wait until the Autumn shows.

ER collets and holders and chucks are a case in point. There's lots that's not to any standard, some to DIN stds/specified tolerances and probably hardened but a lot more expensive.

It's in one way remarkable how accessible much of this stuff has got, but in another it's still expensive enought that it'd be better not to have to leaarn everything the hard way.

Can anybody offer any experience based recommendations/guidelines etc?

Why is it that there's very little explicit criticism of poor quality stuff on forums - despite there being a fair amount of junk out there?

Thanks, ian