Milling machine X and Y axis out of square

Thanks for letting me know what tramming is. Never used it as a term in any of the toolrooms I worked in and have done it countless times on my own Bridgeport. Now I know what im doing!. No, seriously, keep the info flowing, you never know where your knowledge will stick or come from and that makes sites like this so good.

Tom D Walshaw aka tubal cane model engineer of the highest order 1912 to 1998

I was also confused when I watched the first TubalCain video on YouTube as I was expecting a British accent !

I suppose any one can call themselves what ever they want on YouTube .

Tubal Cain (AKA MR PETE 222 ) has many videos on YouTube possibly a hundred ? Maybe more?

Another good one too watch is by turn wright enterprises he has heaps also and does some amazing things in his shop.

Ian

Edited By SLOTDRILLER on 13/02/2014 16:29:23

At a pure guess tramming possibly comes from trammeling (to use a trammel). Rotating one point round another connected by a bar. Which is pretty much what you do when you rotate a dial indicator round an axis (spindle) to check for perpendicularity.

Martin

I know I'm not helping much, but maybe helping give perspective. My chinese X1 was ALOT more than 0.31 out when I first got it

I got a good set of M&W bearing scrapers, some micrometer blue - and a small surface plate to help maintain flatness and just got stuck in, its a back breaking cycle

measuring, unbolting & lifting column out the way, scraping, bolting down, measuring again but I got there after a good few hours and when it's done, it's done, the only heart breaking thing is, I'll be selling soon, and it will be worth no more than an off the shelf unit despite all my mods and efforts

I would recommend a block and tackle or lift of some sort on anything bigger than an X1 unless your last name is Schwarzenegger 

Edited By Russ B on 13/02/2014 18:39:54

hello all

Ive been thinking about this thread and what Nobby wrote

If you bolt down a piece of square ali steel etc through the middle and take a skim off of all 4 sides then measure the diagonals would this indicate that the x & y axis were square to each other?

I do this all the time to square up kitchen cabinets so I don't see why it won't work the opposite way round

If it were out, how you would go about rectifying it is beyond my knowledge or ability

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul,

In theory yes but one would have to ensure there is not even so much as a microscopic burr on any of the corners as this would give a false reading and then there is the risk o tool deflection coming into the equation.

Ian

Hello again Iam back.

Have been trying to contact Warco tech department all week by phone and e-mail as of yet zero response. Again thankyou for all your posts. Tramming is not the problem, the problem is that if I set the X axis the Y should be 90 degrees to this and by using different methods and standards, (please see attached photos) I still get almost the same errors...so it must be out of square machining of the casting(s), have tightened up the gibs etc but with nil diference in errors. However I try the machine is still to far out to make the machine of any practical use to me, I cannot understand how the test record supplied with the machine records this value at 0.02 at 150mm when the error I get is at BEST 10 times greater than this. If the only way to correct it is to scrape the surfaces that to me would be out of my depth, but thanks........anyone would a cheap mill!

Regards

Keith

How do you know that the box cube is square to better than the accuracy that you are trying to measure?

Andrew

Hi

The ground cube is of 'reference standard quality' all other equipment used to get to this conclusion has been checked and is of a very good quality and accuracy.....apart from the mill!

You could flip the box over front to back (so the side currently facing the camera is facing the column). True up for X again and check the runout of Y. If the runout is in the opposite direction the box is out if you get the same as before the axis are out. If the cube is out and the axis are correct the readings should be identical and opposite. If both are out the error on the axis is the first result minus the second result. I think.

regards Martin

If I remember correctly, the mill has 2 adjusting screws. One front and one back of the casting on the Y axis. I would guess that if both are not adjusted correctly, then the mill will move on that axis.

There's a simple way of checking, without needing any references or measurement. Take a 100mm roughly square plate, say 10mm aluminium, and clamp it to the table. Make a cut in X with Y locked. Lock X, unlock Y and make a cut in Y. Repeat with a second plate. If the plates are then stood Y to Y on a surface plate if the X and Y axes on the mill are not square then there will be a gap top, or bottom, on the Y faces.

Andrew

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Keith,

You have my sympathy, and I suspect that goes for everyone contributing to this thread.

If you can ever reach Warco, to discuss this; I suggest that you ask them how they do their check. ... If they are supplying an individual test certificate for each machine, this should obviously be a matter of record.

Could you please put a copy of the certificate in your Album, just in case there is clue.

MichaelG.

Keith,

It is clearly a vital requirement that the horizontal axes of a milling machine must be at 90 degrees to each other within very close limits.

I think you only have two options- neither are probably very acceptable

1. Accept the error and work around it
2. Try to correct the fault yourself as Russ B did

I think Warco are now off the hook due to the timescale involved. It is a pity you only found the error 12 months after your purchase.

Your experience shows the problems associated with with Far Eastern equipment that is imported and not subjected to proper quality control procedures by the importer. Chinese manufacturer of all sorts of equipment can produced excellent things but only when they are properly controlled by the Japanese, USA or European company they are working for. Examples are "big name" computers, I Phones, digital cameras etc.

I appreciate that small UK importers do not have the same clout as large and powerful household name customers but this should mean that they put more effort into checking the quality of incoming goods even if only on a percentage basis. They appear to work on the basis of supply it as received and sort out any problems that arise.

Your experience also shows what I have always suspected that so called accuracy test reports included with these machine are not worth the paper they are written on..

Hello Keith,

May I add another check, which unlike Andrew's doesn't need you to cut anything.

Taking your pictures as a guide with the clock moved from front to back of the box and the recorded difference of 0.17mm, what happens if you do the same test on the other side of the box without moving anything except the mounting of the clock?

Assuming the box is square, as it should be, then I would expectthose readings will be reversed. that will reassure you that the box at least is as you believe.

You don't I think say how you aligned the box in the first place, was it by try square across the table? Again, testing on the other side of the box with that, using the inside edge this time should give the same degree of fit. Now turn the square over and butt it up and repeat the steps above. If the try square is wrong that will show as a gap on both sides.

These are simple tests and cost nothing to do except a little more time. They may help you sort out which things are wrong. I think the box would be true from it's stated quality, the mill also to be right and the try square wrong in that order of probablity. Even testing with another try square might reveal something before you condemn the mill and it might save face if challenged as you are likely to be.

I hope that shed some light

Brian

Having had a look at your photos, could I suggest repositioning the cube so that the table is centred (equal overhang each side of the saddle) & rerun the check, I have had "issues" with overhanging tables when checking CNC machines in my previous employment, getting strange results from instruments such as Renishaw ballbars & laser equipment that were tracked down to the table twisting & drooping when it was severely overhung. It might not be applicable here, but costs little more than a bit of time to check.

Where in the country are you ? The county would do - I am in West Yorks & would be happy to offer a second opinion if you were nearby.

It is unfortunate that you have not been able to contact Warco, but this is not an insurmountable problem - no need to put it in a skip for the sake of a bit of machining !

Nigel B.

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Gray,

I was trying to avoid being so explicit ... but that's basically why I asked to see a copy of the Certificate.

For info. here is Warco's Quality Statement from the website:

Even though we always strive to have the most competitive prices, Warco never compromise on quality. Independent quality control procedures which we have instigated with our suppliers have had a huge impact on the accuracy, feel and finish of our machines. Dedicated inspectors work closely with suppliers to ensure Warco's consistently high standards are always maintained.

MichaelG.

Graham.

I fully understand about modern QA procedures having worked in industry all my life.

Are you saying that the end customer, as the first person to see the machine after it left the factory, should do their own quality control?

My point is that small companies such as Warco et al cannot impose modern QA procedures on their suppliers who are on the other side of the world as big customers (who usually have some of their own staff at the factory)can.

Warco and the other small importers must do some QC checks even if it means using the methods dating from some years ago.

Hi

Having got a Warco WM14 mill the above thread made me think that it would be prudent to check the accuracy of the x and y axis on this mill. Using a similar procedure as described by Andrew I milled a 10mm aluminium plate in the x axis with the y locked and vise versa. The final cut was repeated without adjusting the either axis so as to take out any spring in the cutter or the system. The machined surfaces which were at right angles, hopefully, were checked using a Moore & Wright square with a 5 inch blade. With the stock held against one edge the gap from the blade to the other surface was examined by holding against a bright light, while a fine bead of light was observable along the whole length of the blade it did not look as if there was any change in the gap. This was checked by trying to insert a 1.5 thou feeler gauge between the blade and aluminium plate at points along the blade. At no point could the feeler gauge be inserted between the blade and the machined edge.

While I realise this is a fairly crude check it does give me confidence that there is little wrong with the mill's x and y axis. Needless to say that I am a happy bunny

Cheers

Martin