Shaping Machines

Andrew, I can't count above 10+10 as I wasn't born near a uclear site. .......

After reading this thread, I had to go out and buy a copy of ME! I see what Stephen meant by the overlong preamble and departure from the subject - this one could be a record for Mick.

We often go off thread on the forum, but we're not getting £50 a page!

Of more concern, if there are going to be more "MEW" type articles in ME, is this a plot to get we MEW subscribers to buy ME as well?. Or are they going to be merged in the future?

Is that fair criticism of Mick? the best bits of ETW were his musings on the philosophy of model engineering or the foibles of model engineers, and who would complain about LBSC's "Lobby Chats"?

ME, more than MEW, has always been as much about the asides and thoughts of the contributor as the actual task in hand. It woudl be dull if every atricle contaibned as little text as the Lister engine series, although judging by the enthusiastic take up by builders such articles also have their place.

Neil

I don't know how things stand in the UK, but here in NZ I think most of the shapers have by now gone from industry and the schools. So mostly it is a matter of picking one up from someone who grabbed when the opportunity was there. The schools mostly had smaller machines which would suit the amateur, while the industrial machines tended to be bigger. I have a ten inch Alba which was originally in a school, but I bought it from a fellow club memeber who had done it up very nicely...that is the most expensive shaper that I have, at NZ$850. The smallest one I have is an Ammco, nominally 6 inch but the same machine was sold later by Rockwell as a 7 inch machine. That is a nice little machine, but I really must rebuild the fine feed sometime, it has a very nonstandard arrangement. That was NZ$450, but that was a long time ago now.

In the larger size, I Have a 14 inch Alba with flat belt drive including fast and loose pulley setup. That shaper came all in pieces, luckily nothing important was missing and I have assembled it all except the drive, but have not run it yet. From the state of the bearings, it has never really done any work, you can see the original machining marks. That cost me $250. I don't have a suitable motor for it yet. Then the biggest is an 18 inch Alba, which was $350, a real bargain since it also came with the original vice, a substantial bit of kit that would have been worth the price on its own. That machine was looking pretty untidy, but most of it was just cosmetic, apart from a broken away piece on the downfeed. I was able to screw a piece on and remachine the dovetail, using one of my shapers of course. That machine is three phase, and has a rather awkward delta connected 440 Volt motor...that means that I cannot easily restrap it to run on 240V. It has been run in two different ways, one using a pair of isolating transformers to step up 230 Volts to 460 and apply it to two of the connections. That works but needs a boot to the pulley to get it started, and only provides about half of the power the motor should be capable of. The other approach was to use a motor speed controller (inverter) to apply three phase power to the motor at 230 Volts. This only gives 1/4 of the theoretical power, which turns out to be enough for most things.

Model Engineer has always had articles on machine tools, making them, fixing them, etc. I wrote a couple on some unusual ways to use a shaper a few years back. Actually if you go back far enough, it was "The Model Engineer and Practical Electrician" and had articles on useful things like Roentgen tubes and Wimshurst machines. I have one of the latter that my father built, based on ME articles.

John

The legendary 'cheap shaper you can pick up for pennies' seems to be as rare as rocking horse poo. I would really like to try an adept No, 1 or 2.

Tooling was pretty cheap two or three years ago and you could get some great bargains

I've noticed an influx of dealers and speculators in the last 12-18 months who have bumped up auction prices across the board, and anything they win they then try to sell on at sillyprices

Neil,

I have no problem with Mick's reminiscences, and have read all of his articles in MEW where they are usually relevant to the subject, and add to the enjoyment.

Here though, as OP said, they are mostly not relevant and detract from the "substance".

Publishing the article "as written" is of course an editorial decison, and not up to the author.

Phil

Bazyle: I've double checked and my ratchet gear is definitely 24 'teeth'; sorry if that doesn't accord with your expectations. At the last count my fingers and toes follow the decimal system, not the duodecimal one.

I will be interested to see how the shaper articles pan out. Currently my shaper is U/S, as the main drive crank casting is broken. It was a dumb design, and also had some casting flaws at the point of maximum stress. I have a repair scheme mapped out, it's just a question of whether it is worthwhile investing the time. And, of course, whether I can get the casting out of the shaper and onto the milling machine table without acquiring a hernia in the process.

Regards,

Andrew

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Please permit me a small philosophical digression:

Using fingers [or toes], and ignoring any pedantry about thumbs ... Could someone please explain why/how ten of them come to represent the decimal notation of 0 to 9

MichaelG.

Reminds me of a computer joke

"There are only 10 people who understand binary and I'm one of them"

Michael,

0 to 9 embraces 10 digits (sorry, unintended pun).

David

The local high school had/had a 10" Alba, must see if it's still there, I don't think it has actually done anything. A dozen or so years ago we had a night class, and the metal work teacher at the time did not know how it worked, and I was going to go back and show him how, but he left before I could. If they don't want it, I could give an offer. Ian S C

Metalhacker - Andries

Not sure if this is relevant but I have a Perfecto powered shaper which, on occasion, would not feed in one direction. Two things cured it - 1, making sure the plunger was FULLY seated in the slot and 2. turning the hand feed wheel with the ram in motion - the plunger used to stick in the disengaged position. HTH

Rgds

Bill

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David,

That's the popular answer, of course

But a closed fist is a much better representation of Zero

MichaelG.

I believe the concept of zero as a number is comparitively recent and some cultures (Roman?) did not grasp the concept which held back the development of maths for centuries.

Long Division in Roman times must have been a hoot

On comparing the pictures on Lathes.co.uk with my Adept I realise it has been modified with a non cast ratchet mechanism and an extension handle giving twice the throw.
Possibly could be worth making a bigger gear. The current 20 with 10tpi leadscrew is a convenient 5 thou per scrape. Does it need a 1 thou feed?

Stephen,

Hi all,

I have an Adept 2 hand shaper and was just learning to use it when along came a Drummond. I had been looking for one for a few years. I paid too much for it but it is in fantastic condition and does everything I want it to. I downloaded some of those old, out of copyright, engineering books and was amazed at what was done on shapers.

Even as a shaper tyro I would not part with mine, well, at least the Drummond. Discussions with engineering friends has opened up many ideas and those who originally laughed have become really interested and enthusiastic.

As to Mick's opening article, I found it interesting in that the description of the spinning chuck and the problems with milling it highlighted the value of a shaper, as well as comparing it to a milling machine. When do any of us not tell the 'story' when describing how we did something?

I appreciate that you can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time, but I was surprised at another thread that mostly consisted of complaints about the contents of both ME and MEW. I have seen old copies of the original magazine and was even more surprised at the breadth of scope of the content articles. If we are to fabricate and build items of model engineering, is it not a good idea to first learn how to use the machine that is going to be utilised? I occasionally have a look at MEW to see if it suits me better than ME (I make a lot of my own tooling as well) but I still feel that ME caters for my needs overall; I use my great grandfather's lathe (occasionally) and like to think that I use it in the way that he did (though I don't think I will ever be as good!) and produce items in the way that he did.

I am quite aware that my comments will bring forth howls of derision but, when all is said and done, it is my hobby, to be carried out in the way that I want to. I am not an engineer by trade so my relaxation time has no other benefit than to take me away from the stresses of my day job, and to produce whatever takes my fancy with no time limit. I really enjoy 'old boys' stories' as they bring the past to life. I don't mean that Mick is an 'old boy', but his story about what happened and how he used far older technology to overcome his problem both entertained and enlightened.

I am looking forward to the next instalment of Mick's series as I know that I will learn a lot.

Andy (the retro freak)

Yes, at first site it seems more logical to count up to ten on your fingers and then have elevens in the next column. Thank god we didn't go with that... presumably the sensible rounded up to twelve!

I expect that the origin was to count to 10 on your fingers and then tally a '10' when you started at 1 again. As has been said having a ten with nothing on your fingers wouldn't make sense to people who don't use zero - no fingers would represent what programmers call 'NAN' - 'Not A Number'.

Other cultures use different ways of counting on their fingers/bodies and reach huge numbers!

If you want brain strain, figure out why (most) computers can count to a bigger number of negative integers than positive ones!

Neil

Albeit only by one, and assuming the representation is two's complement - Andrew