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The perfect ME Lathe

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Billy Mills	18/07/2011 20:36:04
377 forum posts	Thanks Jason! Was just thinking about cost reduction and getting rid of iron and time by using a mechatronic approach. It's an interesting question because lathes have had a very long development history yet the average manual machine is just about the same as a machine from 1900. This is just a little different from the evolution of -say- aircraft in the same period. Anyway we all have our own ideas about machine tools-long may it be so. Happy costing Billy.
Michael Gilligan	18/07/2011 20:47:08
23121 forum posts 1360 photos	Here's a thought ... A) The lathe should be built to the highest quality standard that can be achieved at the chosen price point. B) The "starter version" must include all the "big bits" that are impractical for the typical customer to make, plus the facility to enhance it on a modular basis. C) Customers would be encouraged to submit design ideas for bolt-on features ... perhaps with prizes for the best. D) The add-on modules would be available either "ready to fit" or as part-machined kits, or simply as drawings. My point is ... we need the best possible base upon which to build; not necessarily the longest list of features. On a smaller scale; the traditional watchmaker's lathe is a good example of this approach. MichaelG.
Andrew Evans	19/07/2011 09:14:22
366 forum posts 8 photos	I think there would be a Market for a quality lathe in the range of 2 to 5k. Look at the Tormach Cnc mills in the states or the syil or seig Cnc mills. They are not cheap machines but seem to be selling. People do have money to spend on hobbies. In terms of manufacturing what about a lathe designed in the UK, manufactured abroad and then finished and quality checked back in the UK? That would reduce costs and ensure high quality. I like the idea of modular machines using stock off the shelf parts as much as possible - motors, bearings, feed screws, spindles, tooling, electronics, handles. This simplifies manufacture and ensures parts availability in the future and at decent prices. The manufacturing process then concentrates on the core lathe, everything else is bought in. The lathe would be available at a basic spec but with extras like DROs designed in from the start - no retofitting needed just buy an off the shelf add on and plug it in / bolt it on. Basic design has to be rigid and well finished, big bore and cam lock spindle fitting makes sense. No plastic handles etc to give a quality feel. Sales and support would be online only with no expensive showrooms to fund. Just some ideas....
Steve Withnell	19/07/2011 09:39:26
858 forum posts 215 photos	Starting with my basic lathe, what would make it perfect for what I need? It's dimension's are spot on for me - 5x22. Only one job in 4+years I've had it couldn't be done. It sits on the bench too - leaving free space underneath as space is a massive premium for me. * Spindle throat needs to be one inch rather than 3/4 * Slotted cross slide * More rigidity around the topslide/toolpost * 25 cm more travel on the tailstock * Lever locking on the tailstock * Cross slide and topslide locks * Good torque down past 50rpm Nice to haves I probably would not pay for: * Clutch * Hardened bed * Screw cutting gearbox Of my seven "ideal" features, I've implemented the last 3, but the others are beyond me just now. I'll get to the rigidity at some point I guess. Steve
Roderick Jenkins	19/07/2011 13:28:46
2376 forum posts 800 photos	Interesting, Interesting... Bearing in mind that this fantasy lathe is for Model Engineering: I think you can go too big. A 100mm 3 jaw chuck seems about right to me, so probably not camlock. Definitely not bolt on - chuck changing has to be easy. I need to be able to swing 9 or 10 inches for flywheels or loco wheels (3 1/2 or 5 inch gauge). Larger gauges or 1/4 scale traction engines are outside of my requirments. I'm not too hung up on a large through bore, now that I can part anything off using a carbide tip I'm quite happy cutting down to a suitable length. 4 morse taper tooling is getting a bit clumsy (and expensive). Not much point in having large tapers if you are going to fill them up with adaptors to make them small again Space is an issue, so for me a gap bed seems better than 5" over the bed with the consequent beefing up everything to give good rigidity. A removable gap piece would seem to be ideal. A slotted cross slide with a rear toolholder is good. Gets a bit long if we need to cater for 10" swing. Weight - The lathe needs to be able to be carried through the house to the workshop (or even up-stairs) by 2 strapping lads (motor, topslide and tailstock removed) Not too bothered about a gearbox for screw cutting but a selection of fine feeds would be nice. Back gear. VFC is great but no substitute. Provision to retro-fit DRO and/or CNC drives already built in with relevant mounting points. I don't need a set-over tailstock. Enough travel on the topslide to cut a 2MT. So, basically, a Super 7+ tweaks. Would a roller headstock be cheaper to make and do we need to hand scrape slides with modern manufacturing? Can it be done for ~£4,000? Interesting to see what Grizzly have done with Southbend - perhaps they could call them Boxfords over here. http://www.grizzly.com/products/South-Bend-10K-28-Bench-Lathe/SB1002 happy fantasing, Rod Edited By Roderick Jenkins on 19/07/2011 13:52:38 Edited By Roderick Jenkins on 19/07/2011 13:57:42
Speedy Builder5	19/07/2011 14:15:37
2878 forum posts 248 photos	Yep, some good ideas, but no one has mentioned coolant pumps and for me, a really fast speed so you could do a bit of wood turning as well. Thought for adding a bowl turning faceplate on the left hand side of the headstock. Often our workshops are small and have to be used for all sorts of things besides metal. I believe that Southbend did a dual speed range lathe for metal / wood. I often use the vertical mill for routing and morticing, but have to have a second lathe just for wood turning.
Steve Withnell	19/07/2011 14:50:41
858 forum posts 215 photos	I guess the coolant brings out the grain quite nicely? I guess you would need to use soluble oil rather than Neatcut Steve
John McNamara	19/07/2011 15:38:05
1377 forum posts 133 photos	Hi All Gee I tried to keep out of this discussion, but it was too tempting…….. I suspect electronic control is the way of the future. The catch being that the currently available low cost software Emc or Mach 3 for example, and there are others; while being perfectly capable of doing the job, are not particularly user friendly, particularly for those that are not well versed in PC computer usage. Whatever package is chosen it must have a large established user base and web support as the two programs mentioned above do. Some of the more advanced commercial Machine manufacturers have a so called “conversational” interface, Haas for example. This type of system asks the user questions about the task selected. Say A thread, once that task is selected it will ask you the type the size the position and the material speed etc. That is a far cry from entering G codes. However I guess evolution will guide all developers towards that, even at the low cost end. Mach 3 costs 175 USD “Non-commercial users (aka hobbyists) are permitted to use one license for as many machines as they want.” (Quote From their website) I have no connection with the company. Mach 3 does have wizards; conversational as above, that do simplify many tasks already. But there is a learning curve. In a perfect world it would be nice to have conventional control via hand wheels as well. Or should I say that is mandatory. (It would not work for screw cutting there are no change gears) Screw cutting would be done automatically. Re the motor drives themselves together with their controllers and a USB (Now more popular than Parallel) interface board to connect the servos, limits switches Etc to the PC. I guess it is a matter of cost versus performance, prices are dropping all the time in this area. Steppers are less expensive overall compared to AC or brushless DC servos but the prices are dropping. Accuracy I guess we would all like to think we can position the tool to .0001inches, actually quite difficult when you take the errors of whole machine into account. For motors this is a good starting reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepper_motor For Steppers and servos this is a good commercial site with prices in the US. (I have no connection) http://www.anaheimautomation.com Some Chinese manufacturers In this case a company called GSK are also making complete 2 and 3 axis Brushless DC servo CNC kits Motors Drives all ready to plug together with A commercial looking plasma screen and keyboard front panel (You do not need a PC) for under USD 2000. I saw one running at an exhibition a couple of weeks ago. I must admit their representative who had flown from China was very knowledgeable. http://gsk.en.alibaba.com/ To me that is a lot of money and being a turnkey system you are locked into their spare parts. Not so if you buy the components separately as discussed above. It would be a different story if there was local support. There has been some mention of the bed. A lot of new commercial quality CNC lathes now use linear ball rails (Profiled rail not round shaft) instead of prismatic ways. A number of these rail systems are now internationally standardized meaning you can substitute different brands (Prices vary a lot) the bolt holes and dimensions are the same. They have to be changed as a pair you cannot mix manufacturers rails and bearing blocks. The result is very likely to be a much stiffer connection, compared to a conventional V or Box bed particularly if it is a little worn. And linear Rail systems can simply be replaced the machine does not need to be sent out for a regrind when the rails wear. The supporting structure for the rails can be cast Iron or Mineral casting. Or even a weldment if it is properly heat treated and stress relieved. Bed length: what is the ideal distance between centres? The Boxford mentioned appears to be 22 inches is that enough? I guess that is enough for one brain storm....... Cheers John Edited By John McNamara on 19/07/2011 15:40:25 Edited By John McNamara on 19/07/2011 15:43:35
Billy Mills	19/07/2011 22:27:58
377 forum posts	Well everyone's going to have a different spec! But there is a halfway point between a full CNC lathe and manual control, by simplifying the mechanics you can swap out gearwheels for a few lines of code, you can have a hand operated machine -like power steering on a car- but the work is done by motors. Steppers are an obvious but not the only power source, a lot of volume manufactured machines use PM motors and encoder wheels- much better than a stepper, more torque, much greater acceleration, more holding torque and no missed steps worries as the system becomes closed loop not the normal open loop with most steppers. It's also cheaper which is why most modern printers don't use steppers. Would agree that G code is a bit like hand coding machine code, but a powered lathe does not have to take G code, you can have a simple controller- perhaps like a DRO display which could be used to display tool position, to set up thread pitches and to spec taper angle and length or the diameter of a ball. If this appears a bit much then think about the modern automated sewing machine which now makes buttonholes and all other kinds of fancy stitching- Why should SWMBO's have toys that we don't? Happy planning Billy.
Steve Withnell	19/07/2011 23:09:06
858 forum posts 215 photos	Billy, G code is not an issue, nor is it like handcoding machine code. G-code can be auto-generated from 2+3D CAD. It's been that way for donkeys years, the only difference is that the old £250k CAD terminals are called PC's and much of the software can be had for buttons or less. Yep closed loop servo based systems are superior to open loop stepper based systems, but for machine tools, they are not yet close to being in the same price range. I wouldn't like to guess how far the price of a KX1 or KX3 would soar if implemented on that basis. There are at least two gents in this thread able to call the number. Part of this is the cost of robust encoders of appropriate accuracy/precision. Run the free download of Mach3 and play with the wizards for lathe or mill - that's your fancy stitching right there and you do not need to write any g-code. Regards Steve
blowlamp	20/07/2011 00:10:52
1885 forum posts 111 photos	Billy. The problem with a CNC lathe is that it's almost too easy to make complex shapes, that would otherwise take forever to do on our size of manual machine. You could turn out ball-handles and Morse tapers by the million without even breaking into a sweat. CNC really comes into its own on a milling machine and is perhaps the better parallel to your wife's automated sewing machine. Not trying to hijack this thread, but here is a couple of videos of me going through the steps in CAD and CAM, of cutting a simple tyre with some writing 'embroidered' onto its sidewall. Martin. http://www.screencast.com/users/Hammering/folders/Jing/media/f0f21c0b-52e4-42d4-8358-cdc2341bcb61 http://www.screencast.com/users/Hammering/folders/Jing/media/16232f3d-1c3d-459b-9a6b-b7c41fc6a415
Billy Mills	20/07/2011 01:34:51
377 forum posts	Well we are speculating about our personal lathe ideas and so our different views emerge. Perhaps 99% of home CNC conversions use steppers rather than servo motors so we collectively tend to think of steppers as the way to drive an axis. However the "encoder" on the back of a PM motor can be a plastic injection moulded disk and a pair of slot sensors costing a couple of quid total and that can be much better than the 5% step angle accuracy of a Stepper motor - it does not need to be an absolute but a relative encoder- that would give you the potential to PID autotune the loop. I don't see it a problem to make complex shapes easily, that classifies as a very big selling point and a useful feature. What is needed is a simple range of options for people to unleash the power of the processes without having to spend a lot of time training how to do it. So if -for example- you could turn an item by hand control then replay the motion you could fuse manual skills with the repeat accuracy of the machine to knock out as many parts as needed. So my version is a lathe that looks like a lathe with a DRO box with knobs on. You drive it the same way as of old, you still use your skills of control, still see and hear the cut but you can also do loads of what was very specialised stuff as almost a free extra. You do it by getting rid of the change gears and gearboxes, fitting two PM motors to drive the two leadscrews with great big long plastic nuts - in the style of Henry Maudsley. ( If you want ballscrews Squire that'l cost you a little more). By the way, most of the other Accessories on the Mills WonderFord Special do add up a bit more than you might think but you are buying a very versatile machine......and it is an absolute bargain!!!!. Happy saving up! Billy the Industrialist. Edited By Billy Mills on 20/07/2011 01:37:15
ady	20/07/2011 03:58:27
612 forum posts 50 photos	Anything too electronic is going to be goosed in 10-15 years, if not 10 days in some cases as the control board emits little puffs of smoke. There's a load of manual stuff up to 100 years old which can still being used to turn out nice work, what's becoming increasingly rare is the people with the skills to do it. CNC is great for repetition and production type work but the best ME type lathe is a manual unit which trundles happily along for decades in the hands of an ME enthusiast. You can always mod a manual lathe to do whatever you need or want, including bolting some CNC gear onto it if that's what floats your boat. Most ME enthusiasts want to discover the skills and abilities which lurk within that man.
John McNamara	20/07/2011 06:42:19
1377 forum posts 133 photos	Hi All Steppers versus closed loop servos? Early step motor control systems were “open loop” In simple English the controller sent a set of pulses to the motor to move it to a particular position, If it got there all was well however if it did not due to any reason, friction stopped it moving for example. The control system did not know it missed the move. Steppers are also used in closed loop configuration, this is done by attaching an “encoder”; a device that feeds back to the controller the actual position of the motor shaft; thus closing the loop. Meaning it tells the controller if there is a positioning error and it can be corrected by the control system or the machine stopped and the operator advised. Non stepper servos already work that way. Now that both steppers and conventional servos can operate in the same closed loop, selection is simply a matter of price and performance trade off’s. As noted above there is constant evolution of the components that make up a servo system. Also there are maintenance issues, and maybe by the time a component fails it may not be serviceable. However I do not believe that is an insurmountable hurdle. From time to time sub assemblies might need replacement. However it is unlikely that an entire system need be replaced. Competing manufacturers have standardized on interfacing to other components. The same evolution has taken place with the modern Personal computer. Parts can be replaced with parts made by different manufacturers. At this point in time CNC parts are not necessarily “plug and play”, other adjustments may need to be made to make the new component work, but we are heading in that direction. While it is interesting to ponder the pros and cons of individual components, and having read the posts to this thread so far, I guess the biggest problem will be some sort of consensus. Some members have limited space; the overall size of the equipment is important to them. Some want a minimum centre height above the cross slide and others a larger height above the bed for turning larger wheels Etc. I guess we will end up with more than one size. MEWA. Small lathe for watchmakers and instrument makers MEWB Myford size lathe MEWC larger lathe It would be interesting if we took a poll in this forum asking what the MEWA and MEWC sizes might be….. Would we get consensus? The control systems can be similar apart from the motor/drive rating changing. What is clear from reading the posts is that if the human interface to the lathe was more intuitive a number of MEW members may be more interested in an electronically driven machine. As mentioned the sewing machine manufacturers have addressed this problem, the modern domestic sewing machine is all CNC driven for special patterns, buttonholes Etc. all driven by a simple menu. This is where innovation can shine we need to think outside the rectangle of convention and develop that interface. Once this is done the mechanicals can be finalised. We should be able to walk up to the lathe Set a piece of material Set Zero (X and y) to the piece of material (by moving the tool to a known point) As this can cause small errors because the point is hard to see there should be a means of dialing in a small change in the X and Y setting after a trial cut is made. (Already available on mach 3) Then via a menu tell the system the cut we want Giving a “start point” an “end point” and “depth” then the shape….Thread… Chamfer… Plain turn… face etc. Some will want no access to the underlying code; for those that do, it can be a menu option. Full manual control should still be available via the hand wheels, including infinitely variable speed feeds for the saddle and cross slide. Cheers John Edited By John McNamara on 20/07/2011 06:47:31
John Stevenson	20/07/2011 08:36:00
5068 forum posts 3 photos	Whilst this is an interesting conversation it will go nowhere for a multitude of reasons. Some want electronics, Some want different sizes, Some won't accept the majority if their views have been ignored. However the main reason is that no one will want to poppy up in the quantity needed to ensure ongoing production. The Chinese have succeeded because it's cheap, they have a world market and it can be improved or modified on, a bit like Myfords in the early days. For a project to succeed you need on going sales. How may on this forum poppied up and bought a brand new Myford whilst they were still in business ? Second hand sales don't count, that adds nothing for the parent company in terms of continuing sales. John S.
Donald Mitchell	20/07/2011 09:15:38
90 forum posts 3 photos	I bought a brand new S7BPXF direct from the factory, complete with all the usual accesories including 4 chucks (one was a Griptru) way back in 1977 or 78. it was one of the very first green ones - all for £1100.00 inc tax Donald Mitchell Castle Douglas Bonnie Scotland
Donald Mitchell	20/07/2011 09:31:51
90 forum posts 3 photos	I bought a brand new S7BPXF directly from the factory back in 1977 or 78, complete with all the usual extras including four chucks, one was a Griptru; all for £1100.00 inc tax ! Donald Mitchell Castle Douglas Bonnie Scotland
Andrew Evans	20/07/2011 09:37:47
366 forum posts 8 photos	John - what about the example of Tormach Cnc mills in the states? They seem to be successful at selling expensive new units to the individual (that's my perception anyway). I think if the product is good value and good quality people will buy it. Yes people weren't buying new Myfords recently at 8k but that's because people decided that they were not value for money. As a relative newcomer to ME I had the choice of buying a lower quality new Chinese lathe or a 2nd hand higher quality lathe - I didn't have the choice of a new high quality lathe in my price band with the features I wanted. I think if there had been an innovative, quality, modern lathe available as described by various posters here I would have jumped at it if the price was right. What Myford did in the 40's and 50's was innovate and come up with a quality product that, while expensive appealed to lots of people - they marketed the product well, gave great service backup and sold lots of units (at a time when people didn't have much spare cash compared to now) I think there is a gap in the Market now for something similar. Andy
John McNamara	20/07/2011 10:00:15
1377 forum posts 133 photos	Hi All This morning a young man and his Dad came to visit. I am helping the father with a database software problem….. Anyway once that was solved the conversation moved to engineering. Naturally in the meeting room at our place, the workshop! The lad (about 19yo) was looking at the worden project as posted else ware in this forum. We discussed the epoxy methodology, what it was for and so forth. We also talked of the Lathe and mill and the merits of CNC, He is currently a technical student (Networking) , also he is rebuilding an off road car. It is people like him that are the future. He was genuinely interested, and spent some time moving the controls on the lathe and mill. You never know maybe a seed was planted that will grow into a life interest in engineering. Hi Andrew Evens I think you are right about the Tormach certainly not inexpensive but with enough features to beat the cheap competition and pique the interest of the buyer. It will be interesting to read this thread after a day or two; hopefully we may refine our wish lists for various size machines. Cheers John
Ian S C	20/07/2011 12:37:37
7468 forum posts 230 photos	It's similar to other industry, ie., aviation. In the US the manufacturers build an aircraft and sell to the airline, and seem to get things fairly OK, DC 3 etc. UK manufacturers ask the airlines what they would like. Airline a bit conservative, they order a few , but it does not suit the other airlines. Small production run high cost, thats where the aircraft COs are now. You'v got to as a manufacturer build a good range of machines that is affordable. Ian S C

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