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Steam Boat Ban

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IanT	29/04/2011 18:05:51
2147 forum posts 222 photos	Yes Dusty - exactly so. If you read what I've actually said, I think you will see that I'm simply suggesting that a Boating 'Club' would have an acceptable test regime for live steam boilers. By independant, I simply meant not the boiler's builder or owner - so yes - a club boiler inspector. Our Society has boiler testers and operates guidelines for the safe use of live steam boilers. We are also insured. This all makes perfect sense to me and I really don't see what the fuss is about. I don't think you will find any MES that doesn't operate a form of regular boiler testing and that is not insured against public liability. And Steve. If you came to me (the council official concerned with health and safety) and assured me that a) no high pressure boilers would ever be used, that b) all the people 'steaming' on the boating lake were completely competent, c) operated safe and tested equipment and d) that because there had never been any incidents in the past that you (personally) were willing to completely indemnify the council against any future claims for injury or damages in this daft world we live in - then perhaps I'd be completely relaxed about allowing anyone to steam whatever they wanted to in a public place under council management. Or on the other hand, I might just want anyone who used the lake (for live steaming purposes) to be a member of the local model boat Club and to be able to meet whatever requirements the Club laid down for its membership in respect of live steam boilers - if only in order to meet the requirements of the Club's insurance company. Regards, Ian T
John Olsen	30/04/2011 01:47:41
1294 forum posts 108 photos 1 articles	We had a fatality from a central heating plant in this country (NZ) last winter, which is more than we have had from any live steam boiler in any size in over fifty years. We have also had explosions in hot water cylinders, most of which have about 16 gauge copper walls and are never tested or inspected once they go into service. The effort should be put into the areas where the risk is. The risk with a boiler is proportional to the energy stored. The energy stored goes down linearly with the volume of water contained. It also goes down with the pressure, I think also aproximately linearly. So by the time you get to the sort of boiler that goes into a model boat there is very little risk. With model locomotives, which generally have larger boilers operating at higher pressures, the risk would be higher....but has there ever been a fatality or serious injury from such a boiler? I know that there have been injuries from actual (miniature) train operation, but curiously enough we tend to see far less angst about the danger from that than we do about the danger from boilers. Similarly with model boats, I suspect there is actually far more risk to bystanders from a high powered planing hydrofoil than there is from a steam launch. I've seen such a boat, radio controlled, climb a fair way up the bank when the driver got confused about port and starboard. I wouldn't have wanted to be in the way. regards John
Steve Withnell	30/04/2011 07:55:33
858 forum posts 215 photos	Ian T I think you miss my point. a) What is the track record of accidents with little pot boilers on boating lakes? If none, then a ban is simply ludicrous. b) Do not start banning stuff outright when clearly (as you must know as a loco builder) competent model engineers have established a formal structure for controlling the build and safe operation of the complex high pressure boilers anyway and it's a matter of using those structures. (This thing kicked off on the topic little pot boilers not the major model engineering piece) I had breakfast in a hotel on Thursday - next to the toaster was a sign "Warning the toaster is hot - do not insert fingers" and "the knife is sharp".
IanT	30/04/2011 09:48:01
2147 forum posts 222 photos	No Steve, I think you missed my point. The days when a member of the public did something stupid (like touching something hot) got hurt, apologised, walked away and was never seen again are - sadly - long gone. These days you just might get a legal letter six weeks later for damages. So some form of management regime and insurance are important. In my first post I was assuming that the council had banned live steam boats if they were not under the 'management' (rules) of the local boating club. This made pefect sense to me - as I wouldn't expect anyone to turn up with an steam loco at an MES and just expect to steam. There was also a lot of emotive mis-information posted here. A boiler under two litres may not need CE marking when new - but it certainly does need regular testing. Much play has been made of "Mamod" boilers - but they still need to be operated safely - and not all boilers in model boats are that small - and if someone with no expereince buys an old steamer on eBay and just wants to just turn up and steam it - would you be happy? So this was all I was commenting on. However, I have now looked at the New Wirral website and (as Keith stated after my first post) it does seem to be the club itself that has requested this ban. I don't understand why they would want to do this - and if I was a live steam boat modeller - I would not be happy either. But I don't know the reasons behind this decision - so I'm going to leave it there. Regards, Ian T
jomac	30/04/2011 13:18:05
113 forum posts	Why, can the Germans run live steam indoors and outside. ie Senshiem (sorry about the spelling), and you Poms have to ban everthing . that in some spotty public servant, deluded brain, MIGHT???, cause an accident , if its inside or now, outside, A sign to say there could be a problem, should by rights be enough. although idiots will always be idiots, their the ones that do need stickers on them. John H.
Ian S C	30/04/2011 13:22:21
7468 forum posts 230 photos	Ian T, perhaps the clubs insurance co., suggested that if they went electric they might get a lower price policy. seen in the two dollar shop toy department "DANGER chocking hazard", not for under 36 months, what was it, a Frisby about 200 mm dia. nother was a similar notice on a pack of tennis balls, any Kiwi will know about tennis balls, a certain MP, and tennis balls in mouths a few years ago, but we'll leave that alone. Ian S C Edited By Ian S C on 30/04/2011 13:23:46
Steve Withnell	30/04/2011 13:40:48
858 forum posts 215 photos	Ian T, I certainly agree that "The days when a member of the public did something stupid (like touching something hot) got hurt, apologised, walked away and was never seen again are - sadly - long gone." But I'm not sure of the point. If I'm on a boating lake and my little mamod boiler bursts and causes you injury, you will sue me. I understand that. What no one has dumped into this thread is the track record of accidents caused in this way. I certainly agree with you on the complex high pressure stuff. What still hasn't appeared in the thread is the rationale for the model club requesting the ban in the first place, which would also be very interesting to have access to. Steve
IanT	30/04/2011 23:07:24
2147 forum posts 222 photos	The problem that is lurking behind all of this apparently stupid behaviour by our local authorities (and perhaps influencing the boat club's thinking) can be summed up by the term "Compensation Culture" We have always had people who are willing to take advantage of others for their own gain - the difference being that these days we have legal companies who are very willing to encourage and assist them. Even if common sense would seem to dictate that no real damage has been done - the cost of going to law is very high - so many cases are simply settled out of court. It's a win-win situation for the legal firms involved - they get paid either way. And even if it was your Mamod that went bang Steve (and so badly frightened the person/horse/dog/cat/pet budgie etc - that they are now a nervous wreck) - you might not have that much money (and not be insured either) but the lawyers know that the Council (who own the pond) have lots and may just decide it's cheaper to settle - a quick win / immediate profit for the lawyers. It doesn't make any sense but that seems to be the world we now live in - and all we can do is to try and make sure that we minimise our exposure to any such risks (as much as is possible) by taking sensible precautions. I suspect that some of our Council officials (and Boat Club Chairman?) look at things in much the same way & are also trying to minimise their risks - and even though some of what they do may not seem that sensible to us - it clearly must make sense to them.. It's easy to mock them - but the real problem is the system that allows this abuse of the law in the first place. Ian T
Steve Withnell	01/05/2011 09:47:26
858 forum posts 215 photos	Most people have £3m - £5m third party liability insurance included in their household insurance terms. Obviously, if there is a claim and the insurance company can show a lack of reasonable care they will walk away.
Clive Hartland	01/05/2011 10:08:28
2929 forum posts 41 photos	It would seem now that all active pastimes are now being banned, shooting, fox hunting and model airplanes and now a ban on steam engine boats in a lake that is designed for the pastime. Even childrens playgrounds are now so soft the kids dont want to use them or go there. Take to mind the bin police and the level of fines allowed. Its only rubbish after all and we pay for it anyway. The threat of litigation seems to sharpen the minds of these cretins who are just one jump up from shop stewards. They justify their positions by harrasing the population, and eventually gain a high position of authority that only gives them a good living when they retire or even better ousted from their position and they then claim comp. Its only us the people who have to put up with all the clap trap they come out with. Bear in mind on Thurs. next there is a local election and a referendum, if you dont like what is going on then vote! If they are voted out into the wilderness thats them finished, why not tell them so as well. They are servants of the people after all and unfortunately we have to fork out the money for it! A club is the best way of going about getting your rights and facilities, they are bound by legislation to provide facilties but this seems to have fallen by the wayside in recent times. Perhaps its time for us to re-assert ourselves and make them take notice of us the people. Clive
ady	01/05/2011 10:34:54
612 forum posts 50 photos	Why, can the Germans run live steam indoors and outside. ie Senshiem (sorry about the spelling), and you Poms have to ban everthing . that in some spotty public servant, deluded brain, MIGHT???, cause an accident Germany has, because of the Nazis, various safeguards against fascist style decrees from central government. Central government stuff affecting personal liberties needs to be ratified at state level. This means that different states have different levels of ratification. The recent anti-smoking stuff took a while to get through Germany because the last non-drinking non-smoking animal loving vegetarian who enabled anti-smoking legislation was Adolf Hitler. Britain does not have this level of protective democracy...actually Britain doesn't have any real democracy at all. We haven't even been permitted a vote on Europe since 1975, as far as Europe is concerned we might as well be living in the USSR. http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/nosmoking.html
ady	01/05/2011 10:44:05
612 forum posts 50 photos	Bear in mind on Thurs. next there is a local election and a referendum, if you dont like what is going on then vote! If they are voted out into the wilderness thats them finished, why not tell them so as well. Changing politicians won't matter. These people are the unelected administration, the unelected power mad civil servants at both State and Local Council level. You would need to elect radicals who would then sack these people and replace one set of dogmatic nutters with another set of dogmatic nutters. plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose edit: I know a few who live locally, although these folk try to live lives of anonymity in the community my job helps me to observe them. I used to think local council dogma was enabled by angry sociopathic individuals, but in fact many of these people live highly structured extremely habitual almost autistic lifestyles and this is reflected in their "blind obedience to orders" approach to their job. Intruiging things humans. Aye. There's nowt like folk lad. Edited By ady on 01/05/2011 11:02:36
michael cole	02/05/2011 00:46:01
166 forum posts	The local club just want electric or sails on this pond no steam or petrol. There is a much bigger boating pond local which will allow steam and petrol but then you have to be a member of the club. This is my local boatings pond and it is just the club trying to have control. Mike
John Olsen	02/05/2011 07:55:35
1294 forum posts 108 photos 1 articles	I guess that gets you into questions like " should a club have the final say in the use of a council provided facility?" which is a political question that only the locals can answer. If it is a pool built and owned by a club, then fair enough. However, if the only excuse for banning steam boats is the risk of boiler explosions then they are quite frankly talking nonsense. While it is not an impossible occurrance, history show that it is so vanishing rare as to be a minimal risk, in these smaller sizes. There is of course a risk of fire, but then I think that is actually a higher risk with the electric boats. regards John
Ian S C	02/05/2011 12:58:46
7468 forum posts 230 photos	John, until a year or two ago there would have been more danger of fire from the boaties smoking, but I imagine that they have banned smoking at a public parks now. Its the lithium batteries now, they are more likely to explode than any little boiler. Ian S C
Martin W	03/05/2011 09:59:31
940 forum posts 30 photos	Hi With regard battery fires I believe that the L ion (Lithium Ion) cells are pretty stable but it is the Li-Po (Lithium polymer) cells that have a habit of bursting into flames if mistreated. A little time back there was trouble with these batteries in laptop computers causing fires etc. I wonder if laptop computers will be banned at boating pools now . Cheers Martin
Terryd	03/05/2011 21:56:25
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Posted by Ian Abbott on 27/04/2011 17:27:43: ............................... Remember the bloke lying face down in a two foot deep pond, with the ambulance et al standing on the bank, refusing to get him...................... Ian Sorry Ian, I missed that one, references please (Daily Mail or Sun doesn't count). Lets have the evidence I think that I've stumbled into a mass meeting of Basil Fawlty and Victor Meldrew clones being discussed on an episode of Grumpy Old Men and reported in the Daily Mail by a drunken hack determined to get a byline before being sacked. Don't let the truth spoil a good story (rant) eh? Unbelievable. T Edited By Terryd on 03/05/2011 22:22:44
Ian S C	04/05/2011 13:08:39
7468 forum posts 230 photos	your not far off there Terry. Ian S C
Ian Abbott	04/05/2011 19:57:35
279 forum posts 21 photos	Posted by Ian Abbott on 27/04/2011 17:27:43: ............................... Remember the bloke lying face down in a two foot deep pond, with the ambulance et al standing on the bank, refusing to get him...................... Ian Sorry Ian, I missed that one, references please (Daily Mail or Sun doesn't count). Lets have the evidence BBC Radio 4 news item, I think it was about three months ago, but I'll do a search. Ian
Ian Abbott	04/05/2011 20:04:31
279 forum posts 21 photos	Here's the pond story curtesy of the Mail. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1365272/Emergency-services-left-man-floating-face-lake-half-hour-health-safety-reasons.html Ian

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