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Change to the Code of Conduct

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Doubletop23/06/2020 07:16:02
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Isn’t it the case that a lot of the tooling supplied to the model engineering market by the UK suppliers is sourced from China? They add value by landing it in the UK and taking the responsibility for quality. Customers can then make the choice of purchasing the equipment locally, or accept the risk of buying direct. This is a problem for vendors worldwide, and short of governments introducing protectionist legislation, it isn’t going to change.

It strikes me that what has really happened is the suppliers have had a down turn in their business resulting from Covid 19. A cut back on orders and their own supply chain from China has affected their sales. As a result, they are just seeking to blame somebody else.

Although Mytime may be missing advertising revenue the stated reasons and response needs reviewing. If the UK suppliers don’t take the opportunity to advertise, they are just inviting customers to seek alternative sources of supply, which may well mean going direct.

Paul Kemp23/06/2020 07:35:34
798 forum posts
27 photos
Posted by not done it yet on 23/06/2020 06:39:50:
Posted by Paul Kemp on 22/06/2020 23:53:20:

I didn't see any specific seller referred too? Did I miss something?

Paul.

Yes, you did. Read Barrie’s post? Specific enough? It was for me.

If you haven’t seen their ‘phoney’ reviews plastered across youtube, wherever they can attract ‘reviewers’ with free gifts (at least), you may be living in a sheltered world.🙂 That, or you believe these reviews and accept them as completely reliable?

I live in the real world. There are some completely honest people and there are also some that would rook you. ‘Influencers’ are called that for a very good reason. I’ve been around long enough to have encountered the whole range of honesty, or otherwise...

VAT-free, free delivery (and there are others) are just not true (if VAT registered or unless delivered locally, respectively). Even ‘item location’ on ebay items is not always true, either - I know that because I have had at least one item delivered directly from China, even though supposedly posted from the UK!

Yes I saw Barrie's post, he was asking a question not making a statement on behalf of the forum organisers. Thus to me no specific suppliers or sources have been mentioned. Pedantic maybe but the "official statement" is suggestive, not specific.

Paul.

JasonB23/06/2020 07:38:25
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25215 forum posts
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Hopefully Neil will be along later to answer some of the queries but I'll add a bit.

No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers that are bona fide companies who comply with their tax, safety, etc laws does not restrict you to only mentioning our advertisers so you could for example mention Warco, Greenwood, ARC or Cutwell APT, Zoro, or RC Machine, Barrie's BT30 supplier & GHW or PM Research, Ej Winter and so on.

Neil Wyatt23/06/2020 09:44:45
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I'll underline what Jason has just said.

Please don't extrapolate this beyond what is actually in the new code of conduct. As per the CoC, our policy will be to " remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation. This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links. "

Obviously we will try to apply common sense, but occasionally we may have to do more than remove links; for an example people may remember a few years ago we removed some threads that were discussing how to actively avoid import taxes.


One of the key points I want to make clear is we are not going to censor discussion of overseas products or suppliers; we just want people to avoid promoting potentially 'dodgy' sources. Removal of such discussion was discussed but we decided that this would place an unreasonable constraint on forum members.

 

We do not wish to be unreasonable, so please feel free to contact me if you have concerns.

Thanks,

Neil

<edited for clarity>

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 23/06/2020 09:45:28

Michael Gilligan23/06/2020 10:11:33
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23121 forum posts
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Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/06/2020 09:44:45:

I'll underline what Jason has just said.

Please don't extrapolate this beyond what is actually in the new code of conduct. As per the CoC, our policy will be to " remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation. This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links. "

[…]

.

Difficult territory, Neil ... but your general approach seems reasonably practicable.

It may be useful at this point to remind folks that some of the ‘marketplaces’ are [despite appearances] essentially ‘Business to Business’ operations, and therefore not covered by Consumer legislation.

MichaelG.

Dave Halford23/06/2020 10:18:01
2536 forum posts
24 photos
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/06/2020 19:56:58:

We have had requests from advertisers about an increasing for links being posted to products from certain online suppliers, in particular ones who don't operate under the same sort of trading rules (e.g. sources of non-CE marked products).

Also, there's been an increase in links to videos that are more than just simple hobbyist content, but are actually run as money-making concerns - not so much popular ones that get ads added top them by YouTube, but the ones that have along list of 'featured products'. These feature links usually generate income and often refer to the supplier mentioned above.

After considerable discussion we had to find a compromise that wouldn't stifle open discussion, but also wouldn't fill the site with lots of free links to these suppliers. We have to bear in mind that this website is paid for by our advertisers and without their support it could not continue.

As a result, we have added a fifth section to the 'Code of Conduct', www.model-engineer.co.uk/conduct/ :

Posting links to unregulated sellers or ‘review videos’
While we understand that forum members want to discuss all aspects of the hobby, we reserve the right to remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation. This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links.

If you intentionally or unintentionally post a link to content of this, we will normally delete the link (we will try and avoid deleting entire posts, although this may sometimes be unavoidable if the post is little more than the link).

If we edit you post in this way it will be clear as the name of the moderator who did the edit will appear in the post.

We will try and apply as light a touch as possible.

Thanks for your understanding.

Neil

Not sure how 'we' or the moderators are supposed to know that a supplier does not conform to UK standards, have you been supplied with a black list?

We have already been prevented from posting about one unearthed equipment sale from a UK supplier

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

JasonB23/06/2020 10:22:24
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Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

 

Dave, please read my earlier post.

"No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers..................."

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:23:05

Gerard O'Toole23/06/2020 10:23:17
159 forum posts
13 photos

It s a difficult dilemma and I am glad to see Neil say 'common sense' will prevail.

I think you have to decide if you are an international site or a UK site. many vendors are regulated by their respective governments/ local authorities but not perhaps to the standards you might expect. So who decides who is regulated or not?

I am reminded of AMC motorcycles pulling all advertising from the then motorcycle press , and refusing to loan motorcycles for review, over their believe that 'foreign' motorcycles were being reviewed too favourably in comparison to their own. I believe AMC 'boycott' lasted about ten years.

Oven Man23/06/2020 10:28:52
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204 forum posts
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The days of free postage from China will shortly be coming to an end which should help to level the playing field considerably.

Peter

Neil Wyatt23/06/2020 10:42:33
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19226 forum posts
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Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

Not sure how 'we' or the moderators are supposed to know that a supplier does not conform to UK standards, have you been supplied with a black list?

We have already been prevented from posting about one unearthed equipment sale from a UK supplier

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

Hi Dave,


We are a UK based site and our policies have to be based in UK rules and regulations, but being an overseas supplier is not a bar to being mentioned. I think most forum members can grasp the sort of suppliers we have in mind. To try and create a list would be impossible, as most of the suppliers who would be on it are obscure or transient; a blanket ban on the marketplaces they use would be impractical as there are many respected suppliers who use them. We ask forum members to use their judgement and we will use ours, and between us it will hopefully work..

The other thread was pulled as statements were made of dubious legality. For example it was stated as fact that a supplier was negligent because they didn't unbox and inspect every product before sale.

Neil

SillyOldDuffer23/06/2020 10:56:11
10668 forum posts
2415 photos
Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:22:24:
Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

Dave, please read my earlier post.

"No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers..................."

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:23:05

Storm in a teacup? Lot's of joining the dots to draw a rude donkey going on in this thread! For example, this is nothing to do with the European Union or the future of CE Marks*.

Neil's change of conditions says 'we reserve the right to remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation. This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links.' My bold, may, not will. As MyTimeMedia is a responsible commercial operation working with UK regulations and this Forum is funded by advertising, it shouldn't be a surprise the owners reserve the right to remove material that in their judgement is unwelcome.

I get censored occasionally. Serves me right! There's always been a reason and I've never thought the Moderation unfair.

Dave

* If concerned about CE Marks best write direct to your MP or the Prime Minister - they probably don't read the Forum. I've not seen anything so far in government policy suggesting that the status and use of CE marks will change after leaving. It's just not on the agenda. Did anyone ever say it was?

Dave Halford23/06/2020 11:48:36
2536 forum posts
24 photos
Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:22:24:
Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

 

Dave, please read my earlier post.

"No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers..................."

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:23:05

Jason, I did, it said No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers that are bona fide companies who comply with their tax, safety, etc laws This is why I said "Not sure how 'we' or the moderators are supposed to know that a supplier does not conform to UK standards"

And now I see my error with that one, I should have said "their standards without any knowledge of what they might be".

Edited By Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 11:57:56

blowlamp23/06/2020 11:50:25
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1885 forum posts
111 photos
Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 07:38:25:

Hopefully Neil will be along later to answer some of the queries but I'll add a bit.

No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers that are bona fide companies who comply with their tax, safety, etc laws does not restrict you to only mentioning our advertisers so you could for example mention Warco, Greenwood, ARC or Cutwell APT, Zoro, or RC Machine, Barrie's BT30 supplier & GHW or PM Research, Ej Winter and so on.

How would I ever know for sure those businesses fully comply with anything? Is Banggood OK to link to?

Martin.

Dave Halford23/06/2020 12:07:17
2536 forum posts
24 photos
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 23/06/2020 10:56:11:
Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:22:24:
Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

Dave, please read my earlier post.

"No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers..................."

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:23:05

Storm in a teacup? Lot's of joining the dots to draw a rude donkey going on in this thread! For example, this is nothing to do with the European Union or the future of CE Marks*.

Neil's change of conditions says 'we reserve the right to remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation. This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links.' My bold, may, not will. As MyTimeMedia is a responsible commercial operation working with UK regulations and this Forum is funded by advertising, it shouldn't be a surprise the owners reserve the right to remove material that in their judgement is unwelcome.

I get censored occasionally. Serves me right! There's always been a reason and I've never thought the Moderation unfair.

Dave

* If concerned about CE Marks best write direct to your MP or the Prime Minister - they probably don't read the Forum. I've not seen anything so far in government policy suggesting that the status and use of CE marks will change after leaving. It's just not on the agenda. Did anyone ever say it was?

This came out for a no deal Brexit withdrawn doc it may come back if no deal happens anyway at the end of the year.

Martin Connelly23/06/2020 12:12:18
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2549 forum posts
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Links to paid influencers are giving them free advertising and income from more visits to their videos. The advertisers funding this forum have reason to be miffed.

Martin C

JasonB23/06/2020 12:23:00
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25215 forum posts
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Posted by blowlamp on 23/06/2020 11:50:25:
Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 07:38:25:

Hopefully Neil will be along later to answer some of the queries but I'll add a bit.

No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers that are bona fide companies who comply with their tax, safety, etc laws does not restrict you to only mentioning our advertisers so you could for example mention Warco, Greenwood, ARC or Cutwell APT, Zoro, or RC Machine, Barrie's BT30 supplier & GHW or PM Research, Ej Winter and so on.

How would I ever know for sure those businesses fully comply with anything? Is Banggood OK to link to?

Martin.

Don;t expect anyone to really know for sure but as Neil Said

"We are a UK based site and our policies have to be based in UK rules and regulations, but being an overseas supplier is not a bar to being mentioned. I think most forum members can grasp the sort of suppliers we have in mind. To try and create a list would be impossible, as most of the suppliers who would be on it are obscure or transient; a blanket ban on the marketplaces they use would be impractical as there are many respected suppliers who use them. We ask forum members to use their judgement and we will use ours, and between us it will hopefully work.."

and

"Obviously we will try to apply common sense"

As it is hard to tell where anything from Banggood really comes from since they are a market place then would have to say they can't be linked to.

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 12:23:39

Paul Rhodes23/06/2020 13:20:14
81 forum posts

He who pays the piper calls the tune......so why are we surprised that advertisers are disgruntled.?

Assuming that discussion is permitted and common sense vetting applied by the moderators, and I do not doubt it, who can object?

SillyOldDuffer23/06/2020 13:41:40
10668 forum posts
2415 photos
Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 12:07:17:
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 23/06/2020 10:56:11:
Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:22:24:
Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:
...
...
...

* If concerned about CE Marks best write direct to your MP or the Prime Minister - they probably don't read the Forum. I've not seen anything so far in government policy suggesting that the status and use of CE marks will change after leaving. It's just not on the agenda. Did anyone ever say it was?

This came out for a no deal Brexit withdrawn doc it may come back if no deal happens anyway at the end of the year.

Thank Dave - I missed that.

Not surprised it's been withdrawn. As described UKCA is very similar to CE and was to be run in parallel with it. I can't believe anyone would welcome twice the bureaucracy! At the moment, the government advice is: For current information, read: CE marking , which links to the 2012 position. I can't find anything about what happens deal or no deal next year. I guess CE Marking will carry on exactly as before because no-one has suggested a better alternative yet.

Dave

Martin W23/06/2020 13:56:41
940 forum posts
30 photos

While strictly not on topic but in relation to shipping costs from China to the UK are NOT free though they are extremely cheap. This site gives details of the cost of postage from China, at present the exchange rate is about 10CNY to £1 or about 10p to 1CNY. The cost to post a parcel to the UK is 5CNY for the first 50g + 0.09CNY for every gram extra even for air mail.

Martin

blowlamp23/06/2020 14:15:50
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1885 forum posts
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Posted by Paul Rhodes on 23/06/2020 13:20:14:

He who pays the piper calls the tune......so why are we surprised that advertisers are disgruntled.?

Assuming that discussion is permitted and common sense vetting applied by the moderators, and I do not doubt it, who can object?

Some might think that is the forum contributors, magazine purchasers and digital subscribers.

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