pressure vessel testing

Michael....After one of the model steam railway federations published the unbelievable cessation of the 3Bar/litre rulea couple of years ago, I printed off and perused these regulations and the codes of practice from cover to cover and I still cannot find any exemption that covers model steam boilers of whatever size. The regulations are hardly easy reading but if you can pinpoint the actual exemption I would be most grateful.

Mick

Mick,

I didn't say it was easy ... just that it was fairly explicit

The first point to mention is that my link is to the revised version of the document; which appears to be a considerable improvement on the original. ... They have obviously tried to make it more compehensible ['though it's still very hard going].

Perhaps the most useful 'point of entry' is the new Appendix 4. .... I fully accept that this is specific to Schools, but at least it is relevant to your sort of machine.

The applicability of these "at work" regulations to the Amateur will [I think] always be a matter of judgement, and ultimately you are likely to be governed by the interpretation used by your Insurers.

MichaelG.

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P.S. ... I expect to have some 'quiet time' over the next few weeks, so might read the documents more carefully.

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Correction : That ^^^ is the ACOP, L122, not the actual legislative document.

For reference: Here is the legislative document.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 15/01/2016 17:02:46

One interesting thing about the Code of Practice is it make its clear that the USER of a model steam engine not the OWNER is the responsible person. This suggests that clubs who, as long as they make reasonable efforts to ensure members using a club engine are competent, could then argue they were not responsible if the member caused an accident . I can't see it as licence to just hand an engine over to an unsupervised beginner.

Neil

I am of the opinion that the PSSR is a piece of catch-all legislation (which I think was a consolidation of various European directives) which has caused unintentional consequences. It is true that there are references to "schools" and "minor systems" but nowhere does it exempt the operation of any model locomotive boiler of whatever size from the requirements of the regulations. There may be a concession to "proportionality" but this is left vague. It seems to me quite disproportionate that a Mamod traction engine should be subject to the same written scheme of examination etc as a piece of major industrial plant. It is probable that officialdom would not be overly interested in model boilers...........until something goes wrong.

Mick

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Forgive me if this sounds confrontational, Mick; I don't mean it that way:

Why should it "exempt the operation of any model locomotive boiler of whatever size from the requirements of the regulations" ?

MichaelG.

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[quote]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 15/01/2016 20:01:59

Neil, in the case of PSSR, the terms "owner" and "user" are defined in the interpretation section and their meaning is restricted to that definition, and should not be interpreted as the "common" meaning.

For example, when you get your tyres changed on your car, the chap who inflates them is not the "user" of the system, it's the business who employs him. Similarly, the person who is operating a model steam engine may not the "user" of the model.

Schoools are the most obvious example, students may well use a model, but the school is the "user".

I'm surprised at the lack of facts in this thread, given how long the legislation has been around.

No reason at all Michael. The thing that I find bizarre is that some of the people that I speak to on this subject seem to be in total denial or ignorance of the PSSR which have been around since 2000. Quite clearly, boilers used in public should be subject to some sort of testing regime (and as far as I can establish have been so for some considerable time) under sensible rules drawn up by the relevant clubs bodies and associations. These practices were overturned by PSSR in favour of a far more rigid testing regime but there are still people in the model engineering world, in denial, talking about the 3 Bar/litre rule. Nevertheless, the regulations would appear to only affect public or workplace use and those using their boilers in private....me included ......are exempt from its requirements.

Mick

As we've now moved on to boilers for model locos let me refer to the Southern Fed publications, obtainable from **LINK**

which cover exactly this topic. As mickH says, if you are making the boiler yourself and will never operate it in public, there are no relevant regulations, do your own thing. If you are making for your own use, but want to operate in public join your local ME club, whose boiler inspector will advise and eventually test and certify if you make a half decent job of it. As usual the requirements are not onerous.

Edited By duncan webster on 15/01/2016 22:21:16

I'm sorry Mick - but I'm a little confused about your comment;

"These practices were overturned by PSSR in favour of a far more rigid testing regime but there are still people in the model engineering world, in denial, talking about the 3 Bar/litre rule..."

I thought that the current Green Book (2012 Southern Feb guidance) still did differentiate between "above 3B/L" and "Small Boilers" (e.g. < 3B/L) - or have I missed something? .

Regards,

IanT

Edited By IanT on 15/01/2016 23:21:29

IanT........quite my point Ian, although probably not very well made by me. The Blue Book does indeed differentiate between < or> 3Bar/litre but PSSR 2000 does not. If I may go back to my post of yesterday at 0953 I asked whether I was missing something as well. Has there been an exemption made by HSE under Reg 17, for small boilers? If it has it does not seem to have been very widely published. If not then surely PSSR 2000 must apply in all its requirements?

Mick

Edited By mick H on 16/01/2016 07:15:23

Gentlemen,

Please forgive the pedantry [it is not gratuitous]:

I believe that the unit of measure is 'bar litre' not 'bar/litre'.

This appears trivial, but that 'division' slash changes the meaning.

MichaelG.

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P.S. .. For my defence; I have just located this useful page.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/01/2016 07:55:45

Michael.......I do believe that you are absolutely correct!

Mick

Good morning Michael.

Your link just seems to take me to a page labelled:- about:blank.

Not sure if it is just my system?

Thanks. V8.

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Sorry, V8 ... don't know how that happened

It should have linked to this

http://www.healthandsafetytips.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24765

MichaelG.

You have to be careful with reading internet forums (fora?) including this one.

From that link:

"Barlitre is a measure of the potential energy stored in a pressurised system.
A litre at one bar has only the potential energy of the mass of fluid"

Think about what that means!  e = mC²

Russell.

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 16/01/2016 10:38:33

Yawn

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Russell,

Does this [non forum] source meet with your approval?

MichaelG.

It seems there must be some regulation somewhere for Garrys op, found this on one site

Walther LP 300 air cylinder 300 bar - Reduced from £140 to £40 due to "time expired" .

Would have thought it would come under the same regs as a diving bottle,

b.

Well, at least it seems to be correct as opposed to talking about the potential energy of the mass of fluid!

Russell.