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Loctite
| Wolfie | 14/01/2012 13:40:32 |
 502 forum posts | I am informed that it is possible to use a Loctite glue to glue small items well enough to be machined  However on looking at the Loctite website theres dozens of them. Which one do I need for general purpose use? |
| Gordon W | 14/01/2012 14:58:05 |
| 2011 forum posts | If tou are thinking of sticking a small washer to the end of a rod, to be able to thin the washer down, or similar usage, I would just get a small tube of cheap stuff from the pound shop or similar. Get the proper stuff when you need it, it's expensive and usually has a short shelf life. Cheap stuff also will often release just with hot water but ample strength in short term. |
| KWIL | 14/01/2012 16:56:02 |
| 3681 forum posts 70 photos | To increase the shelf life, keep it in the fridge. Use a small snap or clip type box to keep it away from the other contents of the fridge. You can also use quick set epoxy (Araldite) to attach things for machining, usefull for sticking a spacer to a chuck jaw if you have repetition work to do, not a problem to remove. |
| David Littlewood | 14/01/2012 17:27:38 |
| 533 forum posts | Wolfie,
The adhesives sold under the Loctite brand fall into two main types, and they are entirely different in their capabilities.
The first type are called retaining compounds or anaerobic adhesives. These were the type for which the brand became well-known, and when most MEs refer to "loctiting" something they are usually referring to these. They are designed for one thing: retaining shafts or male threads in holes or female threads. They remain liquid in the presence of air, but in the absence of air (e.g. in a tight-fitting joint) they polymerise to something akin to perspex. This forms an interference fit, and with the stronger grades you would probably destroy the parts if you tried to pull them apart. There are weaker grades for holding screws in place to stop them vibrating loose but allowing them to be undone with tools. What these subsrances are useless at is forming butt joints. They have poor to very poor peel strength, that is to say they do not bond very strongly to the metal or whatever you are joining. However, they are excellent at what they are designed to do.
The other type is cyanoacrylates* or "superglue". These are designed to stick well to the substrate and form conventional joints. The joints have decent peel strength provided the surface is well prepared beforehand. The joint can be broken down by heat (as can the anaerobics). I dislike them, as they are a b****r to get in the right place, set too quickly when and where you don't want them to (e.g. your fingers) and too slowly when you do.
Obviously for the purpose you mentioned the second are the type to try. I would however suggest that you try putting a layer of paper between chuck and workpiece to make it easier to separate them (obviously with glue on both sides) wheron a sharp blow with a hide mallet should separate them. I would be wary of using epoxy on your chuck, it could be hard to remove.
I also suggest you read a copy of Tubal Cain's "Workholding in the Lathe" in the Workshop Practice series. If you think I go on about these too much, well to be honest most of the series are mediocre to reasonably good, but the half dozen by that author are all first rate and should be in every serious new ME's collection.
David
*Actually the anaerobics are also based on cyanoacrylates, but presumably different ones with different qualities and/or different extra ingredients.
Edited By David Littlewood on 14/01/2012 17:46:54 Edited By David Littlewood on 14/01/2012 17:47:15 |
| Wolfie | 14/01/2012 18:29:35 |
502 forum posts | The general idea is that they DON'T come apart. I think the retaining stuff is what I'm after. |
| David Littlewood | 14/01/2012 19:17:44 |
| 533 forum posts | Wolfie,
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, the retaining compounds are very much what you don't want to use for that application. You need the bond to stand up to the shear force of turning, but be capable of being broken to remove the finished product. The retaining compounds just do not have the shear/peel strength.
However, there's nothing to stop you trying it, with very light cuts you might just get away with it.
In the past, turners used to use wax to hold things on to faceplates, and others have been successful using hot glue guns. You have to take greater care to get the thing flat with those though.
David
|
| Wolfie | 14/01/2012 19:51:58 |
502 forum posts | Noo I don't want the bonds to break at all either before or after turning. I want to be able to attach a couple of pieces of metal together so they stay there. I don't want to turn any washers. This is what I want.. They are designed for one thing: retaining shafts or male threads in holes or female threads. They remain liquid in the presence of air, but in the absence of air (e.g. in a tight-fitting joint) they polymerise to something akin to perspex. This forms an interference fit, and with the stronger grades you would probably destroy the parts if you tried to pull them apart. So I can screw summat together and have it stay there. Or get a tommy bar to stay where it is. Permanently. Edited By Wolfie on 14/01/2012 19:54:36 |
| Ady1 | 14/01/2012 20:21:14 |
 6137 forum posts 893 photos | Get a 20g bottle for a quid from pound land and see how you get on Spend any money saved on wine wimmen and song (hic) |
| Nicholas Farr | 14/01/2012 20:23:58 |
 3988 forum posts 1799 photos | Hi Wolfie, Loctite 603 should hold your tommy bar in place,if the gap is no bigger than 0.1 mm, or 638 if the gap is no bigger than 0.25mm. The joint must be absolutely clean though, Loctite do a surface cleaner for these, which is 7063. As has been said, you will find them expensive even for a little bottle, but unlike the superglues they will keep providing there is an air space in the bottle, so don't think you have been done if you buy a bottle and it is only half full of liquid.
It is really good stuff, and you may find it usefull to download thier Solutions Guide, they do data sheets on all thier products too.
Regards Nick. |
| Jon | 14/01/2012 21:51:56 |
| 1001 forum posts 49 photos | I have limited my Locktites down to just two, forgot the numbers off hand but can get them. The blue i use where screws are to be adjusted or removed. The green bearing retainer you can do the same but have to work the thread whilst its going off. That aside and down to nitty gritty, been using retainers ie bearing lock to bond two parts together whilst being able to heavilly machine the two parts. I dont mean a p...y cut either. Show it some heat until smolders the part will come away after, i use it all the time. Superglues as in cyanoacrylates never ever had any joy and no shelf life when opened. |
| David Littlewood | 14/01/2012 23:23:23 |
| 533 forum posts | Wolfie,
Sorry, my misunderstanding - I saw Gordon's assumption that you were talking about sticking things on to a chuck for machining and wrongly assumed that was what you wanted to do. Yes indeed, perfect for retaining a tommy bar or a screw. Just be careful on heating though, the fumes are somewhat toxic, ensure ventilation.
Agree with Nick's comment about the long life of Loctite retainers - I had 4 bottles from 20+ years ago, 3 are still fine, the high strength one has just gone off in the last year - and the 3 still left are only about half used. Never found that joint cleaning is anything like as critical as it is for superglue though, the way they work does not rely on adhesion in the same degree.
The only superglue I have found to keep well was a (relatively) large bottle of Hafixis; every other one has gone off inside a year, this one has lasted several years, though I'm having problems with the cap sticking on!
David |
| Wolfie | 15/01/2012 00:05:34 |
502 forum posts | OK so the general purpose tommy bar/thread stuff is 603 right? |
| Nicholas Farr | 15/01/2012 00:51:53 |
3988 forum posts 1799 photos | Hi Wolfie, 603 and the other 6XX's are fine for retaining plain cylindrical parts, if you wish to glue threads then the 2XX's are more suitable, e.g. 2701 is high strength for threads up to M20 whereas 243 is medium strength up to M36.
Regards Nick |
| Jim Greethead | 15/01/2012 05:24:36 |
 131 forum posts 8 photos | I don't think it is a good idea to keep Loctite in the refigerator. The specifications for optimal storage are 8C to 21C and the product sheets say that storage below 8C or above 28C may adversely affect the product properties.
I stored mine in the the workshop (beer) fridge. I recently built up a crankshaft using 609 and straight dowels with attention to gaps and cleaning and curing time and it came loose when I put it in the lathe to cleanup. I know that others have used it successfully for this purpose and have assumed that the low temperature caused the problem.
I have tossed out all the stuff from the fridge and replaced it with fresh (muttering about the cost all the time). I am now about to try again using 638 which appears to be the strongest.
This time I will also use taper pins (if I can find somebody to sell less than 100).
For what it is worth.
Jim
|
| Stewart Hart | 15/01/2012 09:00:16 |
 674 forum posts 357 photos | Comming back to Wolfie's origonal ?.
For holding small parts for machining why not try soft soldering them to a backing plate, works for me, just aply a little heat to melt solder to remove.
Adhesives are good in the right aplication, the trick is knowing the right aplication, sometimes you just have to suck it and see.
You also have to have suficient contact area, and as some of you guys have said the parts have to be clean.
Stew
|
| Clive Hartland | 15/01/2012 09:47:39 |
 2929 forum posts 41 photos | Cleanliness is paramount with loctite, there is a spray that pre-conditions the surface before you apply the loctite.
Clean the surfaces with cellulose thinner and allow to dry and then assemble.
gap filling adhesives do need a gap! its no good assembling with a tight fit if it cannot have a gap to fill!
Thread locking types only need to be used if there is vibration or you have long intervals between maintenance or in places that you would have to dis-assemble lots of parts to get at the loose screws.
Clive
|
| jason udall | 15/01/2012 17:19:17 |
| 2032 forum posts 41 photos | water is a very effective cement...used in machining gemstones...cheap ..wets surfaces well... no disposal probs..the liquid nitrogen used to instantly freese is a pain. Did build instant freese chuck once using peltlier heat pump took only ten seconds to chill can of pop too cold to drink from room temp |
| jason udall | 15/01/2012 17:21:28 |
| 2032 forum posts 41 photos | the hot / cold thing reminds me of how they put "inserts" in milling cutters these days...heat up holder drop in insert , allow to cool |
| David Littlewood | 15/01/2012 18:55:25 |
| 533 forum posts | Jim - I think KWIL was referring to the superglues when he recommended refrigeration; I agree the retainers don't need it, mine have survived in good condition on an open shelf for over 20 years. Didn't know that refrigeration was actually harmful though.
Clive - Cleanliness is indeed vital for superglues, doesn't in my experience seem to be so important for retainers - they even sell oil-tolerant ones. You seem to be giving the impression that retainers are only used for thread locking, which is quite misleading, the high strength retainers are for permanent mounting of non-threaded shafts, but are as I described above totally different from superglue.
Jason - Must have been a mighty powerful Peltier device, would need about 5kW of heat extraction to do that.
David
Edited By David Littlewood on 15/01/2012 18:59:10 Edited By David Littlewood on 15/01/2012 18:59:25 |
| jason udall | 15/01/2012 19:13:06 |
| 2032 forum posts 41 photos | pump was half kilowatt so maybe took longer than I remember..1.5kJ/K for can so for 10 kelvin about 14kJ 500 Watts would be 28seconds. |
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All Forum Topics > Beginners questions > Loctite