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Drilling chuck questions

Which type of drilling chuck for a tail stock?

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PekkaNF10/12/2010 19:54:41
96 forum posts
12 photos
Hello,
 
My 3-16 mm old keyed klunker chuck is heading south!
 
I use 90% of the time normal HSS drils from 4 mm to 13 mm, NC spotting drills, Slocombes and such. All the normal works you throw into tail stock withiut too much worries - until....They start to walk out. First one and the ocassionally. Now I have to tighten twice. Not an ideal situation.
 
What king of chuck would be a safe bet? Most importat thing is that it holds all drills, hard or soft secure. Accuracy can't be worse than my old one.
 
Originally I took one with the key, because it was shorter and bigger than the alternative. I tought that I got sturdier one. Not so sure anymore.
 
Is there fundamental differencies between key and keyless chucks?
 
Which mounting? B16/B18 to MT#3 or is the cylindrical way to go?
 
Revolverlathes used to have around 20 mm or 1" short studs and neat chuks to go. Would this have something in it or not?
 
Thanks,
PekkaNF
Jeff Dayman10/12/2010 20:57:47
2356 forum posts
47 photos
Hi Pekka,
 
The best chuck I have found is a keyless "Golden Goose" brand chuck, 0-5/8". Absolutely great, if you can find one where you are, I can recommend it. KBCtools.com also have them, not sure if that is an option for you.
 
JD
Chris Trice10/12/2010 21:43:10
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1376 forum posts
10 photos
I've used both keyed and keyless and find the keyed ones grip far better. Sounds like your old chuck has had it if items are 'walking out' and a new chuck is in order. Jacobs are good and not expensive. You'll appreciate the difference between the old and new.
Nicholas Farr10/12/2010 23:26:16
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3988 forum posts
1799 photos
Hi, personally I prefer keyed chucks and agree with Chris that they grip better. Of course they should always be tightened correctly using all three holes (they don't put three in so you can use one that just happens to be in the right place) and gradually tighten each one in a rotational sequence going round twice, not cramming each one up as hard as you can and hpoe for the best. This can be considered a bit time consumming, but if done correctly with a good quality, unabused chuck, you will not have drills spinning or walking out. Your chuck will also serve you well for very many years if treated right.
 
Regards Nick.
Ian S C11/12/2010 01:18:25
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7468 forum posts
230 photos
Before you 'chuck out' the old chuck, pull it to bits, and clean it out, it might not help but at least you'll learn a bit about the construction of the chuck, and you may find that minus the gunk that it works again. Have a look at--

 

                                Ian S C

PekkaNF11/12/2010 20:49:14
96 forum posts
12 photos
Thank you all,
 
I'll follow that link and take it appart AFTER I have a new chuck. I always have to have a plan "B" and I'm known to plan "C" - just in case, because it happens to me often.
 
I can't see really good chuks with keys. All keyed chuck I have seen on catalogs are missing accuracy, max. rpm and such information, many seems to be made for hand tools and their spesifications.
 
I can see varous chucks advertised at lower prices, but lately I have been buying European made and I haven't been disappointed.
 
I have found localy  RÖHM following chucks:
*DIN 6349 111 "Prima" this is keyed chuck
* 136 "Supra"
*134 "Spiro" this has quaranteed accuracy and it's quite professional, Price is rather high tough: B16, 3-16 mm is 175€ + VAT.
 
There are also some Italians and Spannish too.
 
Google will be red hot before I have made my mind.
 
I should chuck chucks and buy collets with all the money I have left.
 
PekkaNF
Versaboss11/12/2010 22:37:55
512 forum posts
77 photos

Hi Pekka,

about the chucks you mentioned:

I own two Röhm; one a Spiro; one a Supra. According to your description ( I can never remember it) the Spiro is the more expensive one. I can assure you that (imho) the cheaper one is not much worse; read: I see hardly a difference.

I have also Albrecht chucks: the Rolls Royce of chucks, but expensive. (Well Rolls ain't what they used to be, so maybe a bad comparison  )

You mention a Spanish one. Should that be from Llambrich and you can get them for a good price: take it! You can then get (if you select the right model that is; iirc it is called a CNC chuck ) the best of both worlds: a keyless chuck with 2 special spanner flats (rather slots) and a matching key to close the chuck hard. I think that it is almost impossible to close a chuck hard enough with the bare hands. I often use a plumbers band key (ribbon key? strap key? don't know what the English call it) to close the usual keyless chucks.

You may be right that the keyless types are usually of better quality, but I think that a key chuck from a reputable maker ain't bad also.

Greetings, Hansrudolf

John Olsen11/12/2010 23:06:15
1294 forum posts
108 photos
1 articles
Hi guys,
 
I have three keyless chucks in varying sizes and also some keyed chucks.  the samllest keyless chuck I have is a genuine Albrecht, only goes to 8mm (5/16") but is very useful on the Unimat. The other two are nameless from the far east. They grip fine, the problem comes when it is time to get the drill out....They self lock so well that it is difficult to get them to let go again. So for that reason the keyed chucks that they were going to replace still get a lot of use. Also there is a minimum size of drill for a keyless chuck, below which they will not grip...so for model work you may want another smaller chuck as well.
 
regards
John
Chris Trice11/12/2010 23:08:40
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1376 forum posts
10 photos
Rohm, Albrect and Jacobs have good reputations. I'm sure there may be others but if good quality is in mind, stick to one of those three. However, also remember, you get what you pay for.
ady11/12/2010 23:25:52
612 forum posts
50 photos
There are also two jaw drill chucks
 
PekkaNF12/12/2010 14:30:52
96 forum posts
12 photos
Hello Hans,
 
All you say makse sense. I had this on my mind:
http://www.tkp-toolservice.fi/fi/Tuoteluettelot%20%252FOstoskori/?cat=2&kuvasto=2&page=5
That is LLAMBRICH SPX. this one was the one that got pulled out of the self in few nanoseconds after I mentioned what I was after. Bit expensive. NB: prices there are not exact, but sort of indication, they sell 99% to the industrial buyers. Prices also exclude VAT.
 
I haven't yet ordered yet.
 
PekkaNF

macmarch12/12/2010 17:18:38
147 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Chris Trice on 11/12/2010 23:08:40:
Rohm, Albrect and Jacobs have good reputations. I'm sure there may be others but if good quality is in mind, stick to one of those three. However, also remember, you get what you pay for.
 
 I heartily agree.  When I was an apprentice I learn't the hard way that with tools you only get what you pay for.  The most expensive is not always the best but always go for the name that stands up to the test of time. In terms of Lathes, Mills and pillar drills, any drill chuck without a ground taper fixing should go in the bin. If poss then put chuck in tailstock, load up with a clean unabused drill, (about 1/4" dia), and offer it up to a correctly formed centre drilled hole.  If you use the new chuck to form the centre hole then remove chuck from tailstock, put it down then pick it up  and  reinsert. EVEN THE SLIGHTEST suggestion of movement of the drill then chuck chuck in bin or take back for replacement.  (given your tailstock is set true.).(you have checked it haven't you.)
This may sound drastic, but if you produce work that is double ended, I.e. you have to machine I.D's then turn round and hold on the bore or t'other way round then an accurate drill chuck is vital.
My personal opinion on  keyless chucks is that they are only fit for hand held drills. I tried one on a tapping attachment on a pillar drill.  3 holes 3 broken taps. Put on a Jacobs. still using years later.
 
 
Chris Trice12/12/2010 17:31:15
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1376 forum posts
10 photos
I have an Albrecht keyless chuck (two actually, one on a 2MT and the other on an R8). The quality is first class. Problem is, I can count on one hand the number of times I've used it which is never. My Jacobs keyed chuck is always the first in the tail stock. The biggest advantage to a keyless chuck is obviously when you have a lot of tool changes to perform but if you're into mass production, use a turret or buy more than one chuck, which makes it even quicker and easier than a keyless when fitted in a MT tailstock.
Versaboss14/12/2010 00:49:44
512 forum posts
77 photos

Hi Pekka,

Yes your link shows the chuck I have. As a 'satisfied customer' I dare to say you will not be disappointed if you buy it.

This afternoon I was in the workshop and did some measurements. A piece of ground steel (of unknown straightness I hasten to say) showed a t.i.r of 0.04 mm at a distance of 50 mm in front of the chuck. A Albrecht (with integral Morse 2, but in an adapter for my quick change spindle) showed the same numbers.

Then I tested with the shaft of a 12 mm endmill. This was only possible about 20 mm in front of the chuck. The Lllambrich measured 0.025 mm t.i.r. The same endmill in a ER32 collet gave 0.02 mm.

At least for me that's perfectly good enough...

Your mileage may vary as they use to say.

Greetings, Hansrudolf

Ramon Wilson14/12/2010 18:10:58
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1655 forum posts
617 photos
Hi,
 I've had an Albrecht keyless chuck in constant use on my Myford S7 since I was first introduced to them about the early eigthies.  A job came in just as Chris portrays where several changes had to be made on the same job - several hundred times.
We did not have a capstan so that was the cheap option and bought instead. Some time later I bought through my works one for myself - it was very expensive at the time but I paid a bit each week - and cannot remember the last time the Jacobs was used. It still retains its accuracy holding a 1/32 drill up to 1/2". I use it for tapping in the lathe too but 5/16 - 8mm is about the limit. Sometimes it will self release in reverse when tapping but not often on the smaller diameters.
 
I have another one - strange type, keyless but two moving rings that lock. This has a centre drill permanently in it but again just never use it - the Albrecht is just so quick to use.
 
This year I bought a cheaper version at the Midlands show appears to be okay but it still sits here unused I just pick the other up all the time.
 
No I'm not recommending it over a good 'ole' Jacobs just merely satisfied with it's performance.
 
Regards - Ramon
PekkaNF14/12/2010 20:32:33
96 forum posts
12 photos
Thanks,
 
I have had few drill chucks and developped sort of love-hate relationship to them. They look like they are up to anything, but I think that for each aplication there is a better alternative.
 
I don't have a turret either and I had to make some brass knobs. They needed a thread and a countersink. Tried with a chuck, but tap didn't hold well. Then I used three ER25 collet each with it's own nut and drill/tap/countersink! Lucily I had some spar nuts!
 
I got a special chuck for taps. Big and ugly but works.
 
I haven't developped a "knack" for reamers yet, I hold them with a tap-wrench and tail stock holds the tap with a centre. I either need to grow more hands or build a floating holder for a reamer. Tried with a chuck - I tought that it's close to centre, it is for everything elese, but not reaming.
 
Larger drills seem to be happier on MT socets anyway.
 
But I still use a chuck for a bench drill and most of the drills on the lathe anyway! And the good news is that it works good enough most of the time! Anyway, if there is any swarf on the drill, cheap chuck does not moan as loudly as collets do!
 
I'll try some Röhm "prima" chucks on the smaller size (keyed) and got one used milling machine chuck that is pretty massive for it's nominal capacity, This should give me some perspective.
 
I'll be saving for a better keyless chuck, the only real consideration is size:
*up to 13 mm (95%+ big eneugh, but I have some larger drills)
*up to 16 mm (But I have too smaller drils that these will hold....)
 
All pretty much same quality chucks:
* LLAMBRICH SPX
* Röhm 134 Spiro
* Albrecht Precision Keyless Drill Chuck

Cost close the same, then again there is Röhm  136 "Supra and such Jacobs chucks that probably would give most bang for the money and probably would be good enough. I'll see after next salary.
 
I wish I knew what I need, instead of what I want (Albrecht will allways win on last case and I don't think it fares bad on first either....)
 
 RGDS,
PekkaNF
* my speller has dystolexicon

Edited By PekkaNF on 14/12/2010 20:37:54

WALLACE14/12/2010 21:14:56
304 forum posts
17 photos
Keyless for the tailstock - no questions.  Simple reason is you can push in at the same time you're turning the knurly bit so there's no tendancy for the morse taper to loosen and scuff (even if very slightly) the tailstock barel.  
 
Keyed for the bench drill as the spindle tends to revolve so you can't tighten / loosen the thing.
 
I've got a Albrecht which is very good - but then it was from an autojumble at a lot, lot less then a new one ! Probably see you out if you do decide to spend the cash - they're very nicely made.
 
w.
Stub Mandrel17/12/2010 20:14:54
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4318 forum posts
291 photos
1 articles
Voice of experience - look at second hand Jacob's chucks VERY carefully!
 
I have a couple that are no use other than as handles for deburrers etc.
 
Neil
Chris Trice17/12/2010 22:25:20
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1376 forum posts
10 photos
New Jacobs chucks are so cheap (relatively), why even think about a second hand one of unknown condition? There's a reason people are selling an old chuck, usually because it's knackered and they've bought a new one which tells a story.

Edited By Chris Trice on 17/12/2010 22:25:43

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