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Milling/Drilling machine advice

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RJKflyer07/03/2010 20:29:40
49 forum posts
3 photos
New to forum today - looks like a veritable mine of information!
 
I'm after a combo milling/drilling machine. Currently i have a very rubbish Chinese bench drill press - despite some modifications, I've still got about 0.5mm wobble when the quill is extended. It's going up the tip.
 
I now want to do things properly, and undertake some pretty accurate milling. This will usually be at a smallish scale - there will definitely be some OO gauge work, but also i do electronics work that will need me to mill, for example, Eddystone boxes, dural, brass and mild steel. I can't see workpieces getting much over 10" by 6" by 2" deep.
 
So, I've looked about on the web, read your posts, and am in a quandary as the huge trade-off seems to be something small but good but limited in capability versus something bigger, more universally 'capable', but potentially poor quality (so actually not as much use as it appears!).
 
I seem to have narrowed my review to:
Warco WM16 
Sealey SM2502
Proxxon FF500
 
I know they're large(ish) to small, but my plea for advice is around:
1. Are the first two pretty hideous Chinese quality? I'm starting from a Chinese drill press... I also see services to rebuild some of these Chinese ones for ca. GBP250. I could do it myself but rebuilding a Trabant does not an Audi make...
2. Is the Proxxon really as good as i hear?
3. Would you advise me that the Proxxon is too small? I really would prefer something that will take a 1/2" chuck but i think the Proxxon is 10mm. Or am i worrying unnecessarily ?
4. Am i better off going for a Morse Taper device? Will this give me more versatility?

At this stage, let's stick to bench top (although i appreciate that at leats one of the above can stand mount).
 
Being a reasonable novice to milling, what suite of accessories would you advise me to get? To what extent will my choice of mill/drill impact me here?
 
I don't mind spending good money for the right answer.
 
I appreciate that this is a comprehensive 'ask' but you guys look like people who will offer the right guidance.  
 
Thanks! 
Peter G. Shaw07/03/2010 21:22:05
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1531 forum posts
44 photos
Hi,
The Sealey machine is essentially a Sieg X2. Ok, I've no doubt that Sealey will deny it, just as Warco deny that their MiniMill is a X2. Warco is actually correct in that their machine is not made by Sieg, however, it is "strange" that it looks similar to one, has the same facilities as one, and even breaks gears as one.
In fact, it seems as if the same basic design is used by a number of Chinese factories. So, I would suggest that the Sealey may well have the same known problems as the X2, ie a propensity to break gears and a possibly fault prone electronics. Of course, Sealey may be using better components, in which case fair enough.
Now the X2 series of mills can be retrofitted with a belt drive - it may be possible to buy a kit which fits direct, or it may have to be specially made. It all depends on the originating factory. The belt drive allows for higher speeds and is quieter, so I understand.
I note that the Sealey uses a 350W motor. May I point out that Warco and Amadeal supply similar machines with a 550W motor.
Also, the Warco has a larger table than the standard X2. I don't know about the Sealey.

Finally, have you looked at the ArcEuro X1 machine with the long bed? In terms of size it is only very slightly smaller than the X2 type, hence may do for you. To my mind, though, the motor power at 150W may be a tad small, but then I've no experience of it. Having said that, the machine is available at a lot of places so some people must be buying it.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
ps. I thought I had better add that I have a Warco MiniMill, so my comments re the gears are based on personal experience. Also, Arc Euro Trade sell replacement METAL gears ostensibly for the C3 lathe I think, but according to them, and to my personal knowledge, identical to the plastic ones used in the X2 and the Warco MiniMill. I should also say that I have not had any problems electronically. Maybe the uprated motor has caused an uprated/improved electronic control.
 

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 07/03/2010 21:26:19

RJKflyer08/03/2010 08:54:31
49 forum posts
3 photos
Thanks Peter for you insights regarding what is something of a Chinese family tree!
 
 Anyone any thoughts and/or experience regarding the Proxxon?
KWIL08/03/2010 09:13:30
3681 forum posts
70 photos
Neat, tidy and over priced.
Steve Garnett08/03/2010 11:34:43
837 forum posts
27 photos
Posted by RJKflyer on 07/03/2010 20:29:40:
 
Currently i have a very rubbish Chinese bench drill press - despite some modifications, I've still got about 0.5mm wobble when the quill is extended. It's going up the tip.
 
 
You don't necessarily need to be that cavalier with it! There are people around who have converted old small drill presses like that into perfectly acceptable tapping fixtures  (assuming that it's not an enormous one, of course). I have an old SIP one, and that's almost certainly going to be its final guise, as soon as I've sorted out the pillar drill that's currently in bits, as a replacement.
 
Would I buy a Chinese mill? It depends. Certainly not from absolute choice, but there are plenty of people around who have accepted the limitations of them, and managed to improve them to the extent that they seem to be perfectly acceptable, at least for model-making. If you just want to buy something that you can use, pretty much out of the box, then forget the Chinese - their quality control leaves an awful lot to be desired. Which is why the reputable suppliers offer a set-up service for them.
 
My personal experience of Chinese mills is limited to a Warco Major Mill/Drill at work, and this required quite a bit of work on the quill and bearing arrangements before it was even acceptable for milling aluminium, never mind anything harder. They are deceptive; the casting looks like it's pretty solid, and I was going to tap a couple of holes in the side of it for mounting a chuck key bracket. When I drilled the holes, they were all of 1/8" thick, so I had to use nuts as well.
 
I like the look of the Proxxon, but like KWIL says, they don't exactly represent anything like value for money. You're sort-of heading off in the other direction from the Chinese. In the approximate Proxxon price range is also the stuff from Wabeco, which looks pretty good - I wouldn't dismiss this out of hand at all, and there might be something more appropriate there...
 
You asked what else you might need to get, and I have to say that if you get a mill where the head can be tilted sideways, as at least two of your choices do, one of the most useful things would be the means to get the damn thing perpendicular to the table again. I think that most people would agree that tilting-head mills are very much a mixed blessing - you are unlikely to be tilting it very often, if at all, once you've found out just how much hassle it is to get it back to where it was before. Almost invariably it's easier (and probably more accurate) to tilt the work, rather than the head.
 
It's very tempting to buy one of those mill clamping kits that you see advertised all over the place, but with a smallish mill, you will find that many of the kit bits are a tad on the large side, especially when it comes to model-making, and can easily get in the way of cutters. Invariably you end up making your own clamping bits, and it's worth looking back through MEW for articles about this; there have been several - try Harold Hall's, for instance.
 
As for what else you get or need - well, it depends on what you want to make with it. At some stage, a milling vice is useful, and for many tasks, especially on machines without DROs, a rotary or indexable table is useful too.
Circlip08/03/2010 12:51:11
1723 forum posts
Yipeeeeeeeeee, it's how long is a piece of string time again. If you're only interested in 00 gauge, a small machine easily fills your requirements, BUT, if there's a chance that 0 and gauge 1 COULD be on the cards then you need to look bigger. Whatever you decide, providing you don't try to exceed the limitations of the machine and try to CLEAVE metal off you should be ok.
 
  Just as an aside, for those who say leave the round column machines alone, I know someone making a very goood fist of making a 3 1/2" Brittannia on a Maximat with the Emco milling head which is a round column AND twists and turns in every direction when REQUIRED to do so. I also have this set up and although I aren't making a 1/4 scale whatever, I don't want to and am never likely to so don't be fooled into "You can make small parts on a big machine but ----"  A 1HP motor uses less juice than a 3 HP one.
 
  Two essentials for whatever size machine.
 
   1. You need a decent MILLING chuck and anyone who advocates using a milling cutter in a DRILL chuck is STUPID.
 
   2. If whatever comes with an "Oriental" manufactured vice, use that as a doorstop and either make a decent one or buy a quality one.
 
   You can make clamps to suit your requirements, but as far as accessories are concerned don't be blinded by "WANTS", they take up far too much shelf room and rust between usages.
 
  Also look at some of the other beginners threads on here, you're repeating some we've answered already.
 
 
Ian S C09/03/2010 09:19:53
avatar
7468 forum posts
230 photos
When buying have a go at getting them to put in a clamping set as a discount. Here in NZ it often helps to offer cash payment. When I bought my mill back in the mid 80s there were more places selling machinery (about 6 in Christchurch), another one closed 10 days ago, but when theres competion you can talk prices down, don't know what the situation is in UK. Ian S C
RJKflyer09/03/2010 12:01:56
49 forum posts
3 photos
Thanks for the Wabeco lead: Looked at their stuff, and it looks excellent.
 
Anyone got one? Be great to hear some real world experience on it...

kevin brinklow12/03/2010 21:02:05
1 forum posts
hi all
Can anyone help please
I am trying to get a copy of a parts/user  manual for an Elliott rapid mill (vertical type).  Has anyone got  a copy or any info on  where i could get one from.
Any information would be gratefully received. 
 
Thanks Kev
John Haine13/03/2010 10:23:22
5563 forum posts
322 photos
I've got a VM-B but as I'm venturing into CNC and didn't want to start mucking around with Myford's stuff I also got a Super X1 from Arc Eurotrade. 
 
I haven't started converting it yet but I have used it for some small jobs and it's pretty good, and for an amazing price.  The articles in MEW recently showed how it could be improved which will at least increase its mass and damping (though not it's stiffness) so improving finish as long as you take small cuts.  I'm intending to convert it to belt drive as well.

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