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In the Editor's workshop
| Ian Major | 10/12/2009 14:02:51 |
| 3 forum posts | David Clark asks in Model Engineer 4366 whether his articles are too complex.
My own view as a relative beginner is that the articles are about right. I don't believe a periodical magazine is the right vehicle for describing the absolute basics. Absolute beginners will, we hope, be starting to take Model Engineer at any time in the future. Almost certainly they will miss any back to basics series of articles. Do you repeat the articles each year to catch the new starters?
Better for complete beginners would be to point them at suitable books or where available evening classes. Model Engineer then gives the beginner the information to grow from this basic level.
I find the majority of articles, including David's extremly helpful. Particularly useful is where they show how to hold a work item at the right angle, without it moving and without doing oneself an injury! |
| Mike | 10/12/2009 15:00:13 |
 713 forum posts 6 photos | Sorry Ian (and David!), but I have to disagree. Part of my training as a specialist magazine journalist was that, however complex the subject, a complete newcomer should find something in every issue that he or she could easily understand. By this standard, David's articles are too complex.
Taken too far, of course, this involves a "dumbing down" of all articles, which is clearly undesirable. However, I do feel that ME should contain just one article in every issue which is understandable to the most raw newcomer. It would be a great pity if a would-be model engineer bought his first copy, only to find the complete content too complex to understand. That's the way to lose the regular readers of the future. |
| Chris | 10/12/2009 18:22:14 |
| 87 forum posts 13 photos | Being as I am the guy who confessed to not knowing what a wobbler is I thought I would put in my pennyworth.
I have found David's articles to be very useful as have been some of the methods described by Tony in his Northumbrian project. I also read the articles which are over my head and by doing so pick up bits and pieces. Over all I find ME to have a good balance to keep both the expert and the beginner happy.
There have been several threads on this site where peoples lists of essential tools and equipment have been discussed and I have read them with interest but on several occasions found myself wondering what certain of the tools are used for and why they are so valuable to our cause.
The dividing head is one such case. I don't own one, they seem to be quite expensive and so far I am not sure what they do. I feel sure that a couple of paragraphs from our editor could explain this piece of equipment and its value and from there on I can do my own research in the hundreds of sales sites.
As Mike has said, it would make interesting reading for we beginners who are still putting our workshops together and take up little space in each edition. I really cannot imagine that the more experienced reader would be offended or desert the publication.
Tongue planted firmly in cheek. I now know a wobbler is an edge finder, but do I really need one? Surely the edge is where the metal ends and the bench begins!!!!!! |
| chris stephens | 10/12/2009 18:26:13 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Mike,
Whilst i agree to an extent with your view, who of us have not tried something new, been confused for the first day or two then picked up enough to get bye. Only then to look back at the first set of instructions and laughed at the simplicity of them.
I don't think ME should be a place for rank beginners, other than to inspire greater aspirations. Engineering can be learnt from the written word, by those with an inbuilt "knack", but in a twice monthly magazine there is too long a gap for the neophyte. They need to have the basics crammed in in as short a time as possible, to keep the momentum going. A good book, for the basics, is a better place to learn but best of all being shown what's what at a club, evening class or the SMEE beginners course. Even the SMEE course has it's problem in that it, of necessity, it has to be spread over a period of time.
One of the troubles with Model Engineering is the set up costs, here again a club or evening class, (if one can be found) where a newbie can try things out under supervision, without a great outlay on machinery. Who would spend a couple of thousand pounds on a hobby without some experience, therefore I think David's articles are set about right for the equipped but little experienced engineer. Clearly there will be odd things that the author has overlooked as being too simple to need explanation, but the query can be looked up in the books that the beginner already has (or should have).
Dumbing down should be avoided at all costs as it serves no one any good, in any walk of life. New or little understood techniques can sit happily in the articles in ME or MEW, where they are better suited to the average reader. In all things ME and MEW should inspire greater works from the readers, aim for Cherry Hill's standard of quality, but learn to say when enough is enough. This comes with experience and can rarely be taught.
What the complete beginner should take away from his first, of many, ME's is the belief that with some training and experience, he or she can make the things that appear in the magazine. Maybe not straight away, but once inspired the world is indeed his oyster.
chriStephens |
| chris stephens | 10/12/2009 18:31:02 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | To all who have problems with posting a message because they are told they have to login to used the facility. Login, then back page twice (the left pointing arrow at the top of the page) and the page with their post will reappear. Then they can hit the "add posting " button again.
chriStephens |
| Chris | 10/12/2009 19:39:42 |
| 87 forum posts 13 photos | I would have to take issue with Chris Stephens. ME is exactly the place to encourage beginners in this fascinating hobby and it certainly would not work as an encouragement if it was crammed full of information which was over my head. I recently picked up a copy of EiM and found nothing encouraging in it what-so ever. If it was the only publication available I certainly would not spend hours each week 'playing' in the shed, developing my skills and being generally creative and happy.
As a beginner I am not asking that the magazine turns it's self over to the beginner, only that we get a look in. (Something which I think David is making a very good job of).
Without a beginners section how do we even know which books are of value to aquire the knowledge that you are lucky enough to already have?
This is not 'dumbing down', it is education and that can never be bad. Where better to look for it than a magazine and web site frequented by those with experience and a willingness to impart to those with less.
Chris. |
| Martin Cottrell | 10/12/2009 19:50:25 |
| 297 forum posts 18 photos | Hi All,
I think that David's series is generally well suited to the novice engineer. I would hazard a guess that most model engineers are practical and resourseful individuals who enjoy working with their hands and I think if someone has got themselves equipped and gained enough confidence to jump in and have a go at making something then they will have the ingenuity and self-motivation to fill the gaps in their knowledge from other sources if necessary.
I think the sister magazine, Model Engineers Workshop is more the place for the complete "back to basics" stuff and there have been some really good series in MEW over the years to help the novice get started in this most rewarding pastime.
Regards, Martin.
|
| Geoff Theasby | 10/12/2009 21:17:30 |
| 615 forum posts 21 photos | I have been taking ME for about 3 years, as an absolute beginner, albeit one who has worked in a clerical capacity in engineering companies for several years, therefore I know what the basic machining processes are.
Having had little to do with model making since seeing the metalwork lab at school 50 years ago, I always knew I wanted to do more of it.
Now I am retired I have the opportunity. I bought a Unimat 3 off eBay and played about with it, making the odd thing, and buying models as kits or made by someone else.
I plucked up the courage to buy a governor kit for a Stuart beam engine I had bought, and am slowly building it up.
From there I made a very simple, basic, horizontal oscillating steam engine, and am now making a vertical slide for the Unimat.
I would advise any beginner to buy "Model Engineering, A Foundation Course", by Peter Wright, which covers all that the beginner needs to know, I think.
I think ME is good as it stands. Whatever is above my head I can investigate. There are lots of sources of information. I can think about how to do it. I can talk to people. I can try various processes. I will scrap things. All the time I am learning.
Regards
Geoff |
| chris stephens | 10/12/2009 22:19:53 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Chris,
Might I suggest you read my post again. I am advocating that ME encourage beginners. If you have not taken that from the post, then I have clearly not expressed myself properly.
christephens |
| Mike | 11/12/2009 14:25:23 |
713 forum posts 6 photos | Hi again, everybody:
Perhaps one of the answers might be a newcomers' Q&A page in ME. I run the technical side of the Q&A pages in a magazine covering the shooting sports, and it is very successful and well-read.
Of course, one of the problems in any magazine is lack of editorial space, and I am sure that David is bound by advertisement/editorial ratios dictated by his company's bean-counters. However, it is something I would like to see if space could be found.
|
| Ron Colvin | 11/12/2009 21:43:00 |
| 91 forum posts 6 photos | Maybe the written word, supplemented with photographs is not the best format for complete beginners to learn basic machine setting and machining techniques. A narrated video would appear to offer some advantages in this regard. |
| David Clark 1 | 15/12/2009 11:10:37 |
 3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles | Hi There
I am looking at doing something to help the begineer without annoying the advanced reader.
MEW will be easy to do.
ME might take a bit more thinking about.
regards David
|
| Ian S C | 20/12/2009 09:51:44 |
 7468 forum posts 230 photos | I see that back in 1898 there was a postal query and reply department,and a reply could be expected in 2-3 days,stuff just had to be in the day before publication--Oh how we have advanced.Ian S C |
| Mike | 20/12/2009 10:49:34 |
713 forum posts 6 photos | Hi Ian SC:
Yes, the publishing industry in general and specialist publications like ME and MEW have advanced since 1898. I have been a journalist, mainly involved with specialist publications, for the past 52 years, and the changes and improvements I have seen have been phenomenal.
Back in 1898 publishing, like all business, was hugely labour intensive, and I would belive that the staff of ME was very big compared to what it is now. Unlike now, people were cheap to employ.
Based on my own experience, I think our editor does a brilliant job in putting four magazines a month to press, and keeping an eye on our rantings on this website. One publication a month has always been quite enough for me! It would be unreasonable to expect him to deal with reader queries on a personal basis as well.
Nowadays we have the resources of the internet in general and this website in particular, and most queries seem to get a reply from an expert reader in hours rather than days. That IS progress! |
| David Clark 1 | 20/12/2009 12:39:45 |
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles | Hi There
I do try to deal with readers on a personal basis.
Ieive many phonecalls in a week.
Letters always tend to get behind but if you include a phone number they will get answered immediately I receive them if I can.
regards David
|
| Mike | 20/12/2009 14:03:13 |
713 forum posts 6 photos | Apologies to David; I made the mistake of commenting on something of which I have no knowledge, and I am happy to stand corrected. But where does he get his energy from, and can we all have some? |
| Robert Mullan | 20/12/2009 15:11:55 |
| 12 forum posts | A lot of the postings in this thread appear to be answering the question 'Should there be beginners' articles in ME?' rather than 'Are DC's beginners' articles too complex?'. Both questions are interesting but, as a beginner myself, I am more interested in answers to the latter.
My view, for what it's worth, is that David's explanations are mostly clear for the intelligent reader, it is the methods that are perhaps less suitable. I have a Cowell's lathe, a drill press and a reasonable selection of hand tools. I suspect a lot of beginners are similarly set up. I don't have a mill or lots of other more arcane and expensive equipment. I would find the series even more helpful if it assumed that all tasks were undertaken with these sorts of limitations. In particular I would be happy if the use of a mill wasn't taken for granted!
As for the question of whether beginners' articles should be in ME - well durrr! Of course! Those of us who wake up one morning thinking 'today I'd like to be a model engineer' are going to want to know what people in the hobby do, how they do it and how much it costs. One of the best ways to find this stuff out is through a magazine like ME. Yes, books help, and you can get them from the library, but they only tell part of the story. Websites like this one are also good, but they quite often are written in the kind of shorthand only understood by the regular contributors. If ME doesn't carry beginners' articles the casual reader will be quickly put off. I know, i've tried it....
Rob |
| David Clark 1 | 20/12/2009 15:34:10 |
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles | Hi There
If I go down the lathe only route, then I have to teach myself how to do this.
Then I may be doing it different to how a seasoned lathe only model engineer would do it and I may not do it correctly. However, I will have a go in the future.
regards David
|
| mgj | 20/12/2009 15:49:38 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Turn a necessity into a virtue - helps the beginner identify with the difficulties or lack of. If it works and gets the job done safely, then is there really a correcter way ? There is a risk of all getting too dogmatic, because there is (almost) always more than one way to skin a cat. At the same time one has to get in the mind of a beginner and ask what they need to know - depths of cut, speed and feeds. How to hold things, how to plan a job so you don't chop off a datum or holding point, basic tool sharpening and preservation . Shoulders, basic boring and reading dials backwards and taking the spring out of tools etc. Tolerances and clearances because most of our drawings don't have any!!! But equally the beginner cannot sit there and say "I'm a beginner - spoon feed me". He has to contribute by trying (and making errors), and by asking questions. And he CERTAINLY can't sit there snivelling saying "Its too complicated" (because any job is only one cut at a time.), or because he's not prepared to invest in some material and turn it into swarf in order to find out on something that doesn't matter. Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 20/12/2009 15:52:50 |
| NJH | 20/12/2009 20:23:00 |
 2314 forum posts 139 photos | Absolutely there should (always?) be articles in ME for the beginner – we were all there once and even some years down the line there are still things I learn from basic articles. The problem with articles for beginners is that there is no such animal as a “standard beginner” – all will have differing degrees of knowledge/experience and indeed equipment. The difficulty with someone of David’s level of knowledge and experience is that he has probably forgotten the problems and lack of knowledge of the raw beginner. I have found him very prepared to respond to questions but he can only do so much. I think he must present the articles as a “correct” way to work and one which, if followed, will result in a satisfactory working model. I guess many newcomers will not have a mill but if the article uses only a lathe then those with a mill will be frustrated and vice versa! The Stuart 10 models are a good place for beginners to start and many have done so over the years. Would it be possible in some way to involve those beginners making these models to work along with David’s articles and for the problems they encounter to be published along with the articles? A dedicated thread could be set up on this site for questions / answers. As others have commented attendance at the local college is the best way to get a kick-start and it certainly worked for me. Today however such courses are very hard to find and, when found, are very expensive. Learning by sharing problems is a good course. Edited By NJH on 20/12/2009 20:27:36 Edited By NJH on 20/12/2009 20:29:05 |
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