Vice - again

Appologies for another vice question. I'll try and keep it specific.

Is the ARC Versatile SG Iron Milling Vice worth the extra £130 when compared to the Accu Lock Vise (6 inch versions).

Thanks Colin

I don't know what mill you have but unless it's a Bridgeport-size one, a 6" vice is going to be too big. When I bought my Warco VMC mill, I ordered the large SG versatile vice from ArcEuroTrade. The courier warned me it was heavy when he delivered it. He wasn't wrong - I had difficulty lifting it onto the table. A quick 'phone call and a half-day trip to Leicestershire later and I had the 100mm mounted. Much better.

Googling the Accu vice throws up one from Axminster Tools, but that one has a rotating base. I suggest that this will rarely, if ever, be used and will seriously decrease headroom above the vice. I'd advise a purchase from Arc - you won't be disappointed.

John

Hi Colin,

I assume you compare the ARC Versatile to SG Iron vices. The SG iron can be mounted as usual, or on its side or end and the largest SG Iron vice is heavier than their largest Versatile. Depends on what work size you need to clamp. I use several sizes depending on the work.

Thor

And if size is an issue the the SG is smaller as it does not have the lip around the base and is only as wide as the jaws. Basic one is what I tend to use on the CNC and not had any problems with it (80mm used without swivel)

Obviously not the same, but I originally bought a machine vise from Chester. Never been totally happy with it - yes it is big enough (5”, I think) but the smaller Type II vices are my usual ‘go-to’ options, unless I need a hefty vise on the larger mill.

If you are looking at vevor vises, I simply would not be recommending them. To much like a bang good enterprise, for me (although I did spend about a hundred pounds with them late last year/early this year. There were faults with that purchase, but nothing I could not live with).

It is indeed Bridgeport size, check Colin's albums

Good spot, Dave. I normally go to the poster's profile for details of workshop kit, so missed out. 6" big one, then and a Charles Atlas muscle building course!

John

I bought one of the ARC 125mm vises with the swivel base as the opening of the 100mm Bison was not big enough. An option was the 160 SG vise but I decided it would be too big for the drill mill at the museum. The drill mill is one of the biggest available with a 500mm X travel. The swivel base does not have to be used, so the concerns over the loss of Z height are of no value. Granted, the swivel base does not get used much, but if you don't have one, it makes some jobs very difficult. I also got the second 100mm Bison with a swivel base, new for just over £100 which was a bargain and also occasionally fit the base and I'm glad of it. The 125mm ARC is heavy and too big to sit comfortably on the Tom Senior light vertical with the longer bed.

Edited By old mart on 05/04/2022 16:37:12

NDIY I can’t see why you expressed bias against Vevor products, they make a vast range of products, last summer I bought a manual radial honey extractor made by Vevor, I researched many makes before choosing the Vevor brand and my choice was a balance between quality and price. I can say that the extractor that I purchased was well made, no sharp edges to the stainless steel and performs well, no problem in endorsing Vevor as a brand that people should consider. Dave W

Everyone has an opinion. That is mine.

(I’ve had my Lega honey extractor for 20 years and that is still going strong, btw).

They are low price suppliers, which may make items appear good value to the less discerning or ‘harder-up’ buyer.

The item I bought recently was one of the chinese diesel heaters. Items in the box did not match the pics (a part was missing), the machine required some ‘adjustment’ and the fan assembly had clearly not been balanced. The range of fuel delivery does not coincide with the specification, either. Apart from that, it was ‘OK’ (apart from the ridiculous ‘chinglsh’ instruction manual in a very small, feint font).

The OP may not be looking at that supplier - I don’t know - but I would not be recommending them. If the OP were to go that way, that is up to him - but no come-back on me if the quality is inadequate. I did not say he should not consider that brand. I just said I would not be recommending that particular brand, therefore no fault on me if it’s not such a fantastic deal. By all means, you can give them a glowing recommendation.

At the low price point (and, therefore, a lower quality product) I would not be expecting too much. Also, I would much prefer to buy from a more reliable source, such as ARC, where I know any claims, should they arise, would be dealt with in an entirely satisfactory manner.

The typical chinese response, re the missing part, was ‘send a picture of the fault’. Yeah, right!

I'd be tempted with Vevor products.

I had a tilting milling table from them last month (5×7). Really could not be happier with it.

I think that some online sellers are acting as a middle man for them, as my recent anvil, from ebay, appeared to come direct from Vevor.

Good luck.

Jim

Edited By jimmy b on 06/04/2022 05:25:45

Thanks everyone. Yes it's a bridgeport. I checked on the Bridgeport user group and the 6 inch seems to be the standard. I know the ARC euro Vices are imported same as the vevor items but I was wondering if there was going to a difference in quality?

Colin

Cheaping out on a vice, especially your first one, is always a bad move. Although its generally pretty easy to re-work one of essentially sound design and construction with inaccuracies due to a selling price too low for the factory to afford proper quality control its a faff you can do without when you just want to use the mill.

Going to Arc is a good move to get a decent product a fair price.

However I'd question the advice to get a 6" one for home shop use on a Bridgeport. In practice the main advantage of a 6" vice over a 4" one is jaw opening. The disadvantage is its big and 'kin heavy. I "obtained" a 6" Abwood for my Bridgeport which, after refurb is probably better than any of the affordable new options, and have used it maybe twice in 20 years. However the price was right, basically negative as part of a complex deal.

My go to vices are a pair of Vertex VJ400 110 mm jaw width / 180 mm max opening purchased from Rotagrip on a show offer when I had my big square column bench mill.

I'm convinced Rotagrip cocked up the show pricing but my credit card came out smoking and I've never regretted it.

Basically an economy version of a hydraulic vice with screw drive. Actual screw driven closing range is about 2 1/2 inches but the nut is located by a simple pull out pin with three alternate positions for openings of just under 2 1/2, 5, and 7 1/4 inches. Specification accuracy is 0.01 mm / 100 mm, mine came out better when I checked them but the figures are long lost.

Currently £325 from Rotagrip **LINK**

http://www.rotagriponline.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=19436&category_id=125&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29

Which still seems pretty good value. The hydraulic version is £300 more!

I keep the 3" vice in the background for use on angle plates and sine tables.

In defiance of popular opinion I keep the swivel base on.

A Bridgeport has ample room under the quill and keeping the swivel makes it easy to set the jaws parallel to the slots for normal use. I find that, once set, simply pulling back against the locating bolts before final tightening is repeatable to a thou or so in 4". Good enough for most jobs. Generally the bolt down slots on a vice aren't super accurate in position so you need to either accept the need to a djust each time you fit it or do a bt of re-working. Jason reports that his Arc supplied vice was pretty much dead nuts on as delivered. I reckon he was either lucky or Ketan sorted out a special one for his mate! From what I've seen something in the region of 5 to 10 thou error across 4" in jaw allignment when using simple pull back is more typical. Not bad given that the slots are rarely fully machined.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 06/04/2022 09:45:06

I use a 6" machine vice on all my milling machines, including the Bridgeport. It's a Kurt D688, opening is 8.8" to 17" depending upon jaw position. Possibly a little large but it was cheaper than the alternative, slightly smaller, Kurt vice. I have the capability to take heavy cuts on the horizontal mill so need a solid vice to match.

Andrew

Thanks everyone. ARC Euro seem to be a well respected supplier so I think I am just going to go with them. Although I may go for the 125mm Versatile with the swivel base rather than the 160mm SG iron

Colin, that ARC 125mm versatile is the one I bought for extra size, it is not perfect, but certainly very good value for money. Some people cut off the lip behind the fixed jaw which allows a little more Y axis movement, I haven't done this with mine, but see no reason not to if required.

I did this at the weekend!

Worth doing.

Jim

Colin

I'm impressed by the capacity / weight ratio of that ARC 125 mm Versatile. At 22 kg its actually a bit lighter than the Vertex VJ400, which is said to be just under 25 kg, so its respectably handleable.

According to Google Andrews Kurt tips the scales at nearly 38 kg, a couple or three kg heavier than my 6" Abwood so shifting is very much workout time.

If they had been around at that relative price I might well have bought ARC Versatiles instead of my Vertexes as, for me at least, the useful capacity would have been similar.

I'm unconvinced as to the utility of the extra jaw positions as the work holding is fundamentally via a small lip which seems less secure than one would ideally like. Although willing to be convinced to the contrary by photographic evidence I'm not sure I'd have the nerve to actually try.

If I were buy another vice it would be a Chick! Not likely to actually happen. At around £2,000 a pop they cost more than I, and most other folk pay for their mills. But I am eying up the practicality of a look-alike as part of a project that needs an integrated vice.

Clive

Colin, Check out my current thread on fixing a cheap vice. It was free with the HM50 milling machines sold in NZ at the time. There was a real reason it was free. It was no good at all. So far out of true it was unreal. But to look at the vice, it just looked fine. The jaws were all hardened and ground, presentation was awesome. Functionality was all that was missing. Work got several years ago a Homge brand vice, made in Taiwan. Very well made precision vices. I have a 100mm version on my ZX45 mill. I will be buying one for my HM50 mill but a 5inch version the same as at work. The work machines are Kondia bridgeport type machines. The new series now have a chip cover running the length of the vice which is a great idea too. The six inch version with the swivel base is a hefty 41-50kg depending on the vice model, but a 5 inch is 29kg with base.

Neil

I don't want to labour the point, but, as I pointed out in another recent thread on vices, posted by Nick Chelf, there is a quick way around this "problem". Link to thread.

Using a couple of pairs of parallels (12mm and 28mm x 8mm in my case) mounted thus:

.... and using some slightly longer screws, it is possible to extend the gripping range to around 220mm (or 10½ inches, if you prefer). I would only use this as a temporary set up but I have mounted a rotary table this way for a quick job, to save having to remove the vice and then replace and re-tram it.

Surely I can't be the only one who's done this dodge?

John