Fake boiler certificates

May I bring the following to your attention.

Over the last three weeks I have been involved in trying to get to the bottom of a fake/forged boiler certificate for a locomotive purchased on eBay. Not by me I add.
The Boiler certificate was allegedly issued by the Andover Society, I became involved as the holder of the records of boilers that have been tested by Andover. I was given a certificate number which did not correspond with any certificate issued by us. When the scan of the certificate reached me it was for a locomotive previously owned by an Andover club member that he had disposed of without a valid certificate earlier this year. I was amazed however to find that I was shown as the boiler inspector together with another member of the Andover club as a witness and that the test had taken place just after the loco had been transferred. Further examination showed that the certificate number was handwritten and the WSE number was also handwritten but was also not a genuine number. The Certificate did not have a boiler capacity shown nor the bar litres. Quite clearly whoever forged the certificate did not know how it should be filled in because there were other anomalies obvious to anyone who knows how the certificate is intended to be completed.
Then last week looking through the locos on eBay I came across a Rob Roy advertised with a boiler certificate not however claiming to be from Andover this time and the picture of the certificate indicated that exactly the same form of fakery had taken place, the handwriting looked very similar and there were similar errors in its completion.
It looks as if a blank certificate had been copied in both cases and then the details entered from other previous certificates or the blue card.
eBay have been informed by the unfortunate purchaser of the first loco who has received a repayment from eBay because of reasons unconnected with the certificate, but can I give a heads up to anyone going down the route of buying on eBay to make sure that if it is claimed to have an 'in-date certificate' that the certificate is seen and confirmed genuine before parting with any money.

My apologies if this is the wrong place to post this.

Thanks for the alert George. Copied link to my clubs boiler inspector and newsletter editor.

As a safety issue is this a criminal offence?

It could be interpreted as a civil matter and go to a county court i think. Expensive procedure for we commoners, but a business would have the financial clout to back it.

Michael W

It could be interpreted as a civil matter

I would have thought it was fraudulent.

Indeed a police matter, attempting to gain pecuniary advantage by deception, let alone the potential danger.

I would have thought that producing a fake safety certificate for a pressure vessel would be quite a serious thing to do! HSE perhaps?

If a number of these are popping up, what is the authenticity of the ownership of the model itself ? Is this an outlet for stolen models ??
BobH

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Yes I agree.

And what is more they will have their own 'in house' legal team.

Things like stating 'Civil matter' is one of the reasons why taking legal advice, medical advice and many other specialist subjects from people unqualified to do so is not a good idea on internet forums.

Nick

I stand by what i said because it really depends on the circumstances, if damage to persons/property has resulted from their forgery then it would be more serious and definitely a police matter.

Otherwise if hes just printing fakes it wouldn't be taken to such a high level immediately. In short, they can't just bang anyone up because they feel like it.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 11:30:21

Probably not. The OP says that the model had been disposed of without a valid certificate, so one assumes that the boiler was no longer serviceable. A valid boiler certificate probably at adds at least £1000 to the value of even a small 3 1/2" loco.

Forging a certificate in order to increase the value certainly seems to me to be fraudulent and therefore a criminal matter.

Rod

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It's an official safety document. - Bit like an MOT certificate on your car. If a car is found to have a 'dodgy' MOT and there is a serious accident somebody is going to jail. Any insurance would also be void.

They would not be banging anyone up just because they feel like it. They would be (if it came to that) banging someone up for committing a criminal act.

Nick

First of all, you can't look at this from one side of the matter, he's saying its fake, the dealer may protest, he can do that no matter how blatent we think the infringement is, so therefore it's a dispute between two persons that needs to be resolved by the law, you need to prove they did that, the police will not jump to their feet on a whimsy, you have to present evidence for their (or lack of) authenticity before anything can literally happen.

Innocence til proven guilty? 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 13:28:31

If the boiler tester and witness who's names are on the cert says it's nothing to do with them what more evidence do you want, it's a fake and whoever faked it is trying to commit fraud, get down to your local cop shop

If you don't have due process, then this is no better than shouting "witch!" and the folk start sharpening the daggers?

I've got to stop taking the bait on this forum. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 13:34:34

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Re read the initial post.

We have the certificate signed by the OP who is also the boiler inspector and he has stated it's never passed through his hands and as such it's not actually 'his' signature.

Nick

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Nobody is baiting you.

They are just pulling you up for talking broken biscuits and bollocks.

Nick

I thought the silly season was springtime, I suppose it is in Oz.

Clearly a police matter IMHO - forging documentation to secure a sale is fraud not misrepresentation or misdescription.

The boiler tester will probably need to sign an affidavit to the effect that the certificate was not produced by or on behalf of the club.

Neil

Nick_G

Whilst I agree with you in principle, I am sure there are on this Forum those who have spent more than a few moments of their career in the pursuit of legal matters!

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Hi Kwil I realise that.

But as with most internet forums and sites it tends to be the ones that actually are qualified in a subject that tend not to be the most vocal.

The best in this area has got to be facebook. People asking for medical and legal advice. Often they it seems they will ask the advice of their 'friends' (90% of which they have or never will actually ever meet) They will ignore those that say such obvious things as "Go and ask your doctor" and instead take the advice of a stranger (friend) that tells them 'what they want to hear'

The internet is awash with self appointed medical experts and silks.

Nick