ir panels
Martin Murray 2 | 19/02/2015 12:45:59 |
5 forum posts | The workshop is a cabin 1.25"thick interlock board -- wood floor covered --not insulated walls or ceiling Has been generally dry but noticed that as soon as temp by radiant heater heats shed above 12 C ,condensation forms on cold surfaces causing surface rust on some tooling . Ok I know the moisture if from the interior atmosphere and the heating causing the dew point to be crossed Propose to solve the situation as follows. Mount an ir panel 3000nm - this doesn't heat the air but heats surrounding objects and keeps them at 80/90 f. The panel consumes 300 w which would be fed by a 12 v battery using inverter to convert to 230/240. Battery kept charged by solar panel on roof. Ir at this frequency is not hazardous to health but according to manufacturers spec would eventually bring the temperature inside the workshop to a nice 60/65 ambient working environment. The unit would be on 24/7 maybe switching off in summer. What I would like to know if anyone has had experience of ir heating at 3000nm frequency? . This system is totally green and not reliant on wiring to shed. Thanks for any replies
L
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Gordon W | 19/02/2015 13:57:57 |
2011 forum posts | I must say that I don't know the answer. I have been looking at these sort of ideas for some time and have not reached a conclusion. Having said all that I think you would do better by running a small de-humidifier, this also will warm the air. I have not done any maths ,except back of envelope , so have no proof. |
Nick_G | 19/02/2015 14:00:54 |
![]() 1808 forum posts 744 photos | . What size are the solar panels.? And the battery that will have to see the heating through the dark of night.? Not an expert by a long way on this, but I cannot see this stacking up.
Nick
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Bob Brown 1 | 19/02/2015 14:01:22 |
![]() 1022 forum posts 127 photos | I think part of the problem may be the wooden structure it's self, wood is a hydroscopic material and will take on and release water as the temperature varies. I would be inclined to fit a desiccant dehumidifier, power consumption is probably overall going to be less than the IR option as it will switch off at a pre-set humidity level say 40% but will need a supply capable of around 750watts, normal usage closer to 300watts, so still an option for solar power. Bob |
Martin Murray 2 | 19/02/2015 14:18:06 |
5 forum posts | The ir panel consumes 300 w and is rated over 80percent efficient.the inverter runs at more than 70 percent efficiency. Ok so accordingly if my maths are correct total consumption is around 2-21/2 watts.100 amp/ hr battery would run system 24 hrs . The ir supplier suggests switch on/off 50 percent of the day/ night . Assuming then the battery would last 48 hrs without charge. A 100 w 12 v is the proposed solar panel which sould be enough to keep the system going. There could be alternative to the panel ---and that is using 3000nm diodes to generate the ir . These are easier now to obtain but have problems in controlling but use much less power.
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Hamish McNab | 19/02/2015 14:32:11 |
45 forum posts | 2-21/2 watts ?? This time of the year you are not going to get a lot out of your solar panel. What is your estimated total power consumption, and what temperature are you anticipating this system to raise what size of workshop? If your solar panel managed 100w then that's not a lot of heat.
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Neil Wyatt | 19/02/2015 14:40:24 |
![]() 19226 forum posts 749 photos 86 articles | Hi Martin, Welcome to the forum, apologies in advance if this comes across as a bit negative, but I wouldn't like you to invest several hundred quid and discover that it doesn't work. I'm afraid that you will need a lot of solar panels. In simple terms think about how much the sun heats the roof of the shed on a winter's day - not enough to make it feel warm to the touch. A roof-sized solar panel can't get more energy than that, so you would need to cover amuch larger area with panels. 300W may not seem a lot, but on 24/7 is 7.2 kW hours a day, which is 600 amp-hours at 12V - that means you need enough solar capacity to charge ten car batteries during the eight hours of weak daylight on an overcast winter's day. One website estimates that a 100 watt-hour panel will only generate one 100 watt hours on a dull winter day - only enough to run your heater for twenty minutes. You could be better off getting a solar water heating system for the house, and using the fuel savings to insulate and heat the shed. Neil |
Dave Halford | 19/02/2015 15:01:51 |
2536 forum posts 24 photos | I'am afraid Bob Brown is right -- it's the wooden shed. Giant B&Q sites do 25mm thick 8 x 4 sheets of polystyrene for £7 each totally lining the shed will 1. prevent the wood from affecting the inside air during the damp days of winter. 2. Help sound proof it 3. Not cost a lot Then all you need is a light film of oil on exposed metal |
Les Jones 1 | 19/02/2015 15:05:37 |
2292 forum posts 159 photos | Hi Martin, Les. |
Bob Brown 1 | 19/02/2015 15:12:47 |
![]() 1022 forum posts 127 photos | Solar would probably work for shed lights but for anything else pushing it a bit. Most of the renewable options make me laugh, they never give the output quoted by some margin (20% on a good day), thrown in to that mix is the fact you need the power when there is no light. You only have to look here **LINK** to get an idea of daily power consumption, and solar is to small to measure or it maybe all the little inputs are not counted. At night solar is useless, wind is only good when the wind blows, not enough wind or too much no power generated and you still have to have capacity in the system to cope with these situations. For once I think the French have it right, 80% nuclear, we moan if the are going to build anything doubt the complaints will be so hi when the lights go out or you have to revert to pedal power to machine the odd bit of metal. Bob |
Jesse Hancock 1 | 19/02/2015 15:35:57 |
314 forum posts | You might like to talk to boaty people on this one since this is always a problem on a wooden boat. Take a walk around any marina at any time of year and you will see they will have the front hatch open all be it just a bit and one open at the far end of the boat. It is hoped that this will induce a stream of air through the boat sufficient to keep her reasonably dry and at an ambient temperature with the outside. Not forgetting that they have to have water in the bilge to keep the planks swelled and the boat water tight. IE no hope of drying out completely. If you continually wet and dry wood it will rot very quickly. Note the boats on hard standing having water line planks renewed. I think I would settle for an electric fan heater when feeling cold aimed at ones self and a store of WD to disperse the damp from machinery and spray at the end of play. Leave a window or two open just a tad.... I'll bet you you're thinking what about the burglars!!! Truth is if they want to get in they will find away. I also think Harvey Kietle is wrong saying fit a burglar alarm since it takes the cops about two days to respond around here. This is just my opinion of course. Jesse |
Martin Murray 2 | 19/02/2015 16:31:22 |
5 forum posts | Thank you all for your response -- it gives food for thought. The information on these new infra red panels working at 3000 nm was given by the manufacturer---"""""Standard convention heating systems either radiant or hot air expend a lot of energy to keep the ambient temperature up all the time-- not practical for a not well insulated building. Infrared at this frequency releases energy on contact with a surface it doesn't waste energy heating air molecules. Objects in the building and the fabric itself collect the heat - warm up and then emit the heat back eventually creating a stable comfortable temperature."" A panel suitable for a shed 12 x12 would be 300 watts.----- what I am trying to achieve would be to supply that power for 50 percent of the day as the recommendation is to operate one hour on one hour off . Apparently it only heats objects not the surrounding and I have been told that working in the shed I also would be an " object" and so would receive infra red heat . It is said to be like the sun where you can sit out in snow field but the infra red from sun will warm providing there is no cooling air. So if it warms objects it is supposed to prevent condensation.
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Martin Murray 2 | 19/02/2015 16:31:22 |
5 forum posts | Thank you all for your response -- it gives food for thought. The information on these new infra red panels working at 3000 nm was given by the manufacturer---"""""Standard convention heating systems either radiant or hot air expend a lot of energy to keep the ambient temperature up all the time-- not practical for a not well insulated building. Infrared at this frequency releases energy on contact with a surface it doesn't waste energy heating air molecules. Objects in the building and the fabric itself collect the heat - warm up and then emit the heat back eventually creating a stable comfortable temperature."" A panel suitable for a shed 12 x12 would be 300 watts.----- what I am trying to achieve would be to supply that power for 50 percent of the day as the recommendation is to operate one hour on one hour off . Apparently it only heats objects not the surrounding and I have been told that working in the shed I also would be an " object" and so would receive infra red heat . It is said to be like the sun where you can sit out in snow field but the infra red from sun will warm providing there is no cooling air. So if it warms objects it is supposed to prevent condensation.
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Bob Youldon | 19/02/2015 16:32:59 |
183 forum posts 20 photos | Hello all, I've worked out of the same wooden workshop for more than thirty years at our present address and I've never been troubled by damp or rust . When I built the workshop I included a vapour barrier, 50mm polystyrene block infill, all finally covered with an insulating board. The heating is via a thermostatically controlled fan heater set on its lowest setting, timed to come on twice a day, for an hour between 05.00 and 06.00am and again in the evening between 18.00 and 19.00pm. The essential component is maintaining air circulation, too many people experience condensation problems when the simple expedient of a little air movement together with a little heat will eradicate the majority of their problems. By introducing sufficient heating into the workshop those most valuable of our items the machinery, material stock etc, the mass of which also absorbs heat helping to avoid the dew point, at which condensate settles out on all that expensive machinery and turning everything brown. We pay fortunes for our machinery and tools, its not a big price to pay to look after them by a little heat and importantly air circulation. There are a number of excellent heat recovery / ventilation units available, which will provide adequate levels of ventilation whilst recovering the heat from the waste air stream whilst introducing fresh warmed air into the work space. Regards, Bob Youldon |
maurice bennie | 19/02/2015 16:45:20 |
164 forum posts 1 photos | Hi All I have one small oil filled rad with thermostat turned to hold temp. at about 10 degrees,plus one small dehumidifier (drains off about 100 mil per week) depending on weather ,That's maximum amount. Humidity is between 60 to 70 on my meter. No rust in 5 years ,Cabin 3x4 meters with 1 1/2" walls insulated with CELON sheets ,roof with 4" fiber glass, Happy with that ,it's working for Me. Maurice |
Hamish McNab | 19/02/2015 17:08:00 |
45 forum posts | Martin, there is no free lunch you only get out what you put in. If it's 300watts then that's three 100w lamp bulbs. Will that heat your shed to 60* odd? |
Bazyle | 19/02/2015 17:21:22 |
![]() 6956 forum posts 229 photos | This is the best renewables forum in the uk. although it is run by a company they are very hands off like here. Battery - no chance. You can barely keep the lights on with solar. A lead acid battery, even a deep discharge one (which is a total con anyway) must not be discharged more than 50% if you want it to last more than a month. The deep discharge bit just means you can get away with it a handfull or times rather than just once with a regular battery.
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Ketan Swali | 19/02/2015 17:41:36 |
1481 forum posts 149 photos | Hello Martin, A while back we used to attend shows. One venue in particular was a big converted farm barn/shed with no heating over night, and no de-humidifiers at the time. We used to leave machines on display over night to find them covered with fine film of rust in the morning. Then we would franticly clean them before visitors arrived. Then we started covering them with a product called Metalguard Ultra from Shield Technology. (WD40 was a serious waste of time). See this link: We used to sell this product, but we don't now due to certain commercial reasons. However, we still use their products on all the machines we have on display in our showroom. You cannot see the product on any of the milling tables. You use the metalguard ultra sparingly by putting into a garden spray bottle or small spray bottle of some description, and spray a very very fine mist over the table for example. It spreads, leaving a film on the product of about 2 microns, protecting your worktable and/or tooling. Even though our own display area is warm above 17 deg.C, it protects these surfaces from 'rusty fingers' of visitors wishing to see, feel, touch the machines. At the shows, we also used Shields VCI pots inside display cabinets to protect the tools on display from the film of rust. It is often used inside tool chests.. I always promote the use of their products because I know they work, if you decide to go down this route. There is no monitory gain by my promoting them. I am just happy to plug a great value product made in Britain. Ketan at ARC. |
Neil Wyatt | 19/02/2015 17:42:42 |
![]() 19226 forum posts 749 photos 86 articles | Solar panels are no good for applications which require direct energy supply in the winter as they are a seasonal source of energy. Nothing to do with Bob's claim of only 20% of rated output - a 250W panel on a narrowboat will run TV, lights and keep the starter battery topped up all summer. We only get 1/6 as much energy from the sun in winter due to seasonal variation, so as a first estimate you need six times as many panels in winter. A 300W IR panel fed by a 70% efficient inverter will use 428 watts from the battery. Even assuming battery charging is 100% efficient, to run the panel for 12 hours a day will use 428*12=5142 watts. Now as its dark winter days that means you need about 5 kW of solar panels, typically what you would have to power a house. The difference is the house panels feed the excess into the grid in summer and you take extra out of the grid in winter and at night. Neil
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Bazyle | 19/02/2015 18:07:39 |
![]() 6956 forum posts 229 photos | Some rather ungood reviews for metalguard on this suppliers' site just as I was about to thank Ketan for the advice. I must say it is good to see a supplier who will allow negative reviews to stay on display like that. My preferance for decades for rust prevention on non-sliding surfaces, stock material, derusted tools etc is dilute clear Waxoyl or equivalent. Pleasant to touch and fairly permanent but does collect and hold dust after a while. |
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