Sandown photos and thoughts on the show

Hi, I don't think the Sandown Park venue itself is the problem, but it's geography maybe. It is probably great for those south and south west of London but as you get north of the big London car and lorry park (M25) it gets a very time consuming journey. From my home Harrogate and Esher are more or less the same distance, yet it takes me about 3 hours to get to Harrogate and at least 4 hours to Esher. When going to Harrogate, I have to travel for about an hour to get onto decent speed roads, when going to Esher I can get onto a decent speed road in around 40 minutes. Going clockwise or anti-clockwise on the M25 from my point of entry is the same distance more or less but takes around the same time. I've tried the north/south circular, big mistake, although the distance is sorter it takes at least a half hour + longer.

I had two exhibits in this years exhibition and yes I went down on the Thursday which was not to bad of a journey but returning home took a little longer, as the slow progress of the variable speeds along the M25 down to a number of different parking places along the way put another half an hour on my journey. The distance I've never really been that concerned about but the constant changing fast and slow pace that I incurred this year along parts of the M25 I found very tiring and I'm not getting any younger, this years visit to Sandown may be the last one I do. I do think that many of the traders north of the M25 may find the journey to Sandown more expensive and slow which they can ill-afford, time is money and all that.

Ally Paly is reasonably easy, usually a couple of hours or so for me, but it could be just as easy on the train, which I'm considering doing in the new year. My personal favourite venue was the years at Olympia, which I used to do part car and part train/underground.

I do agree that the competition and the exhibits are of paramount importance, but if the trend of dwindling traders continues, I may not think the journey worthwhile, this year I spent the least amount on tools, so the saving on postage was insignificant in my view. I will just add that I think even the recent Midlands show was down on traders but not as bad as Sandown.

Did get a nice little chat with Neil this year though.

Regards Nick.

I'm the opposite. I go for the trade stands because I can try or at least look before I buy and it's nice seeing some of the ingenious ceations of the SMEE members.

The 1978 Model Engineer show combined the Woodworker show and areas for aircraft flying,RC cars,gem craft and war gaming. As many people on this forum have wide ranging model interests maybe a super model show would increase footfall and the traders would come as they would only have to come to one show instead of three or four. The model engineer show has become quite narrow in its focus, although engines are displayed for boats and aircraft they are not shown in their final application. Boating lakes and flying areas used to feature at shows in the past but now we only have traction engines and locos. Sandown has plenty of open space for outdoor flying weather permitting.

Mike

Or find a venue with enough indoor flying room, if they can do it at AP and the old Olympia then don't see why not elsewhere especially with the move over to electric flight. A straight run of track to give rides would also help as they used to have upstairs at Wembly. The Elmbridge club that put on the RC show at sandown had flying along the finish straight, control line in the winners circle and cars/ boats out on the grandstand terraces

Again it comes down to too many shows, in the past MAP had several titles that covered Engineering, model flying, boats, cars, plastic modeling so it made sense to have one 9 day show that featured them all. To do the same now would just stretch the number of punters even further as there are now shows for each of these different branches of the hobby

I don't make locos or traction engines, but I do love to see and admire the workmanship in both. I have a good machine shop and very much like to see the trade stands (even if they do always relieve me of much cash). In my youth I built many model aircraft and still enjoy every aspect of modelling, so I would love to see an exhibition like the one staged at Manchester in recent years, however that only ran for two years due to the lack of traders attending. I will NEVER attend any show in or around London as A) I no longer have the patience to deal with traffic jams, and B) all support services (IE catering Etc.) are a total rip off. So I will stick with the best of the lot, Harrogate.

Cheers Derek.

My local club is the NDSME and every year they organise a coach trip to the AP event.

I've only been to AP twice in 28 years, the first in 1988 when living in Bucks, with a car load of work colleagues, nearly killing my calf muscles walking up that bl@@dy hill from the car park and having to do so backwards a few times much to the hilarity of my work mates, and the other from darkest Norfolk courtesy of the club.

The first was memorable in that it was my first, having read and devoured all info about it that was published in ME whilst living if Jo'burg.

Seeing the miniatures in the flesh was something to behold, but the drool inducing sight was the castings and material that was so plentiful. I did my best when I had my shop, but coud never come close choicewise

From an exhibitors viewpoint, I can confirm that it takes a huge amount of effort and considerable cost to have a stand as I found out the first time I did so.

I was fortunate that in SA at the time, all shops had by law to close at 1300h, the afternoon being the province of paid to attend sports, Sunday being very religious and only free to attend sport allowed.

So come Saturday 1330h the rush was on to get whatever stock we though would interest punters loaded into the VW Combi, its centre seats removed, and then to the Exhibition centre to get everything on display ready for Sunday.

I don't remember how much it cost, but it was free for the general public to enter being a Sunday, so exhibitors beared the cost.

Up early on Sunday to collect helpers & staff and of we went, to make any changes we though of overnight.

Then what I can only describe as a totally exhausting day, dealing with the pressure of punters buying and asking questions, with nary a break.

End of day, and the reverse of Saturday afternoon, getting back to the shop and putting all the stuff back where it came from, then a thank-you to helpers, offering them a discount of course, and all we could then was think of was bed.

Exhibiting is a mammoth undertaking and the decision to do so not taken lightly, especially if the concern needs to close shop for that period.

With the Internet now, I would most definitely NOT now take an exhibition stand, as with a well designed website, I could attract a much much wider audience.

All I could do back in the '70s & '80s was to sent out 2000 newsletters three times a year, to people who had ordered goods, or visited the shop and entered their details in our Day Book.

How I wish both the colour laser printer and the Web had been available, and on occasion daydream about the possibilities it would have offered.

Geoff - A11 dualled all the way, so no longer darkest Norfolk.

Did the show at Manchester run for 2 years? I thought it was only 1....I remember emailing the organisers the following year to see if the show was on as there was nothing advertised but I did not get a reply.

The 'first' year the Manchester show ran I remember it being very busy with regards to visitors so I would be surprised if footfall was an issue for this show. There was not many traders but for the first year this shouldn't be unexpected as people will be unsure as to how well attended the show will be. I`m guessing the organisers did not give this one long enough to establish itself before they pulled the plug.

How about sending a survey out to all the 'usual' traders that go to the main shows and seeing if there is any feedback that would reveal what changes needed to be made to help traders to attend.

Why don't we ask some of the traders here to tell us why they choose not to attend? It might prove constructive in making the event more attractive to vendors. Would a less expensive venue turn things around? I don't honestly think the venue makes much difference providing the basics are provided. The cost is important to punters and traders so are people prepared to pay more for one venue over another?

We seem to be in a viscous circle. The traders are no longer attending because the visitor numbers are reducing and the visitor numbers are reducing because (among other reasons) the traders are staying away.

What then are the other reasons for the falling attendance? Could it be the very nature of model engineering? Model engineering is a different to most other hobbies, in as much as most models require years of dedicated effort to produce so a new one each year for the visitors to admire is unlikely. Also the model engineering hobby appeals more to the white haired generation because of the skills required, the equipment required and the years of dedication required. The younger generations have become accustomed to instant gratification thanks to the Internet et all, and the long hours in a cold workshop has little or no appeal to that generation.

If you look at the visitors to the MEX, you quickly notice they are mostly the white haired generation and over the years the numbers of this generation visiting the show are gradually reducing in number, without the influx of younger visitors, we enter the viscous circle described above.

In my view, if the MEX is too survive, (and I do hope it does for all of my remaining years) then it must broaden it's appeal to embrace a wider and younger audience. Perhaps the only way forward it for it once again to become A Model Exhibition rather than a finely focused Model Engineering Exhibition. I know that not everyone likes model aircraft and model race cars and plastic kits but they do appeal to a wider audience and a younger audience. So, isn't sharing the MEX with a wider audience a small price to pay to encourage a greater number of visitors and in turn to encourage back the much needed traders. I worry that if we continue the way we are, it will not be long before the M E Exhibition and all that the Model Engineer Competition stands for, will drop below critical mass and disappears forever.

We do spend a lot of time talking to traders, but I'm sure forum members will understand that these are conversations with commercial sensitivities.

Neil

ArcEuro was one of the first to stop attending the shows, and Ketan has explained his reasons for no going many times on this forum. It would seem that the main reason is cost of stand space for which the venue owners / organisers take the blame. However no one has yet mentioned the cost of the RATES on venues which is also a major factor in most of the empty shops in the high street. Just a thought !!

Cheers Derek.

P.S. Also the VERY high cost of heating and lighting ?

Ketan from Arceurotrade explained on this forum why he has withdrawn exhibitions and I expect thing are much the same for the other trade suppliers to our hobby. Just as the High Street and Pubs are dieing the suppliers to our hobby are changing. I bought my Myford on eBay and was more than happy with the price and condition, I bought a VMC mill from Warco after research on the Internet viewing at shows and finally visiting their showroom and discussing with Mr Warren my requirements in a less frantic situation than a show. With specialist forums available there is a vast pool of knowledge and experience to help make a good decision. I think supply of tools and materials is better now than it ever has been, without leaving my seat I can view good quality photos of my next purchase, order from my chosen supplier and it arrives in a few days. In the last ten years I have attended most of the model engineering shows in London the midland show most years and abou six Harrogate shows and one Bristol show. I think the model aspect of the shows has held up very well but there is no doubt traders are not there in the force they used to be. I went to Sandown on the Saturday this year and it felt quiet this year, definitely not the crush around stands and stalls. It is nice to see the models as it brings the drawings to life if you are building something that is being displayed.

I would think the Internet has had no small part to play in the changes to the hobby but the future generations of model engineers are going to grow up with the Internet and have no fear of forums or online purchasing. The Internet is perfect for male shopping as we know what we want before we shop so to not have to get in the car and drive to an extortionate car park and queue to buy what you want, a few clicks and its on its way.

Mike

Hi Derek,

I suggest you revisit Ketan's posts, it's not just stand costs that caused Ketan to stop attending shows there are bigger costs involved.

Your point on venue costs is well made.

Neil

I`m not sure the traders airing their views on here would be a good idea but 'one to one' discussions as Neil is doing will definitely help. Friends of mine who trade at model aero shows say that attending a show is as much about keeping their name known as it is selling as people come back after the shows and remember where they had seen items previously (usually high value goods). We know who the traders are that no longer visit the shows and we know how to contact them but those new to the hobby will not know that they exist.

This year I attended Harrogate and Midlands on the Friday and both shows felt packed so are there less people attending the shows? or are they just not parting with their cash....The Midlands show had a smaller space for the exhibits this year which I thought was worse than previous years so I hope they go back to the larger space for future shows.

Our club can't get enough people interested enough to man a stand at MEX these days because there is not enough thre to make it worth their effort. Years ago half the club at least would go to a show and we could fill a 50 seat coach to go to the midlands show. Although I spent 5 hours at the show last time I gave someone a lift he got round it in an hour and that probably applies ot a lot of people who are not show addicts.
I go both for the trade (saving postage and actually seeing the product) and to see the models. I have bought 2 lathes and a mill at the show. and most other tooling too.

Exhibitors want good van access and parking too. MES - parking good, access bad. Ally Pally parking bad access bad, Olympia and Earls court and Horticultural hall, access good parking very bad. I remember a version of the Midlands show somewhere nearish Silverstone that was good for both parking and access but miles from anywhere.

It's not just model engineering shows that are in decline. I work in the IT industry and we are facing similar issues.
Very high stand costs, very high commitment in the form of time to man the booth and dwindling attendances with difficult to quantify return on investment. I didn't go to Sandown this year, I went last year and found the journey (from Oxford) didn't really justify it. The exhibits were great and I had some good conversations on some of the club stands. I came away very inspired. A couple of guys described as the youngest person there, which was flattering (I was 49 at the time). I would do Harrogate again though, as although a trek, I could drop the wife shopping and have a nice weekend in the Dales.

I can remember standing in the queue for Model Engineering Show outside Wembley Conference Centre, in the cold, in the show, bursting to use the loo!, in the late 1970s early ‘80s?. The Model Engineering Shows held there were great, encompassing many hobbies under one circular roof. Googled some video footage of that time, bringing back great memories, of Cox Baby Bee 0.49 Glow Engines, Mardave RC cars, Corsair RC planes, etc..non of which I could afford at the time, but great to see

There was no internet then. Attendance at the shows was great!. It really did feel like a golden opportunity to see, get some knowledge and acquire.

Now days, it is all too easy to get what you want at a click of a button. Does it feel the same? Don’t know for sure. Most of the hobby shops I knew in North to North West London are all gone. Internet it king, and we are part of it, be it for the good or the bad.

AliPali is an ‘iconic’ venue. It covers many hobbies. Londeners love it. If MTM decide to ‘re-encompass’ all the hobbies within their group into one event, perhaps it may work and attract more visitors, especially if it was North of London somewhere upto Watford Junction or even St.Albens may be?

Our findings are that many of our customers enter a hobby such as Maker/RC Car/Plane etc., and later turn to Model Engineering in some way. If all are under one roof, the transition could possibly become easier.

As a trader/seller, would we come?...probably not. Sad I know, but still, probably not.

Is it about the costs?...No. If the show organizers bring in the numbers, which some of them do and some don’t, then it is up to the trader to have the products which the customers may want.

When we started in this business, the internet was less established. Ebay was still in its infancy, our business was really small. To operate a stand cost around £1000.00. As we grew – thanks to your support, by the time we stopped doing the shows, our show running costs were about £10,000~£13,000, after taking all factors into consideration.

Beside us, our direct U.K. competitors have grown too, offering the same or similar products, along with legitimate Ebay and non-tax paying under invoicing Ebay and direct sellers from the Far East. Many on this forum are aware of them, and many of you use them too. I might use them too I if I was doing this as a hobby.

By the time we came out of doing the shows, ME exhibitions accounted for about 20% of our revenue with zero profit.

Still, I personally loved the shows. It was a great opportunity to meet old customers and introduce ourselves to new potential customers. Many of our old customers are more like friends rather than customers.

OK, so we have established that it is not always about the money. Positives established, and now the negatives:

- We are all selling the same thing, so prices can be tight and buyer is king. Acceptable and un-acceptable negotiations are considered which are sometimes stressful when you say ‘NO’ to the potential buyer who quotes competitors, Ebay, ‘rip-off British sellers’ etc..
- Machine competitors bitching, bullcrapping especially about machines is a regular issue. Our version of an honest statement is sometimes contested, resulting in again – stressful situations developing, especially when new entrants from another hobby, with no experience of engineering consider your comments to be false in comparison to other four competitors. Lets not go there

So, as the saying goes, if you can’t stand the heat….

- There is also a logistical issue to be considered. Shutting down, stock control, losing internet business have all been discussed by me in earlier posts. As I mentioned earlier, money is not everything. ‘Health’ is a seriously big issue for ALL the traders, as well as some of the organizers. All getting older by the day. I have great respect for the traders who attend. Many of the traders are on various tablets during the show. Some of us also visit local hospital A&Es to get pain killers…standing in a queue, saying hello and asking each other of our ailments while we wait. Ahhhh I hear you say…it must be a result of all that money we are taking from you …..Sorry to disappoint. As the business grows, there is more work involved in putting on a show. More products to bring, with hope that another competitor will not have the same thing at a lower price than you…only to find that you may or may not come back with half the goods you took, with some products not selling at all.
- Also remember, the organizers do have a serious and moral? part to play in this. ALL organizors talk about putting on a ‘balanced show’ when pitching a stand to traders. This can be taken with a pinch of salt. They obviously want to please you, and will take on most new competitors. Nothing wrong with that – from your point of view. However, how is this any good for me when I find someone new selling the same thing at the show at a lower price?. What happened to the ‘balanced show’ statement at that time?....Sour grapes may be?....I wonder if you would say that if it happened to you??

So again, as the saying goes…

I seriously hope that the shows continue. I really do wish them well. ARC may or may not attended, in some form. At present, unfortunately we don’t think we will.

Ketan at ARC.

Ketan;

If

a) Showing your face and "glad handing" is important (which it is)

b) Moving stock from your store to a show is expensive in many ways:

why not take the smallest booth you can? Bring your catalogues, a computer for ordering on-line, even a small mill or something solely for display. (or at a discount if someone wants to cart it home for you at the end of the show)

It seems like everyone is understanding that, due to spiralling costs and diminishing profits, that these large shows must change.

You seem like a personable chap, I'm sure that the face to face that you (and, any of your competitors) bring to the show would result in people treating your company more as a "friend" than "just another on-line store"

Walk around with an ARC Eurotrade tee shirt on, make them colourful, and even give some away to anyone who orders something fairly large from your at-show internet tied-computer system.

See you at the next MEX - JohnS, Canada.

Hi JohnS, Canada,

The suggestions you made are valid, and have been discussed/debated at various points in previous posts, as well as with show organisers. There is no clear resolution at present moment in time. The business is evolving in a way which needs to be kept in control. If and when there are certain changes made/adoped in our business and/or excess capacity, we might re-visit the events in some form.

Until then, I hope to bump into you as a visitor at one of the shows, or, you are always welcome to come and visit us at Leicester.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 23/12/2014 19:40:25

Perhaps we should ask our German friends as they seem able to organize large,well attended exhibitions;eg Sinsheim.