Helping young people

Whilst it is generally accepted that the Health and Safety Act is purely relevant in the working environment, it must be remembered that within English Law at least, each has a Duty of Care to his 'neighbour' and that the Tort of negligence can be applied if harm becomes them.

To actually invite youngsters into a risk laden environment without the necessary preparation and if need be third party indemnities is at very least foolhardy.

If you do go for it and need to deal with the council clergy etc then be careful how you describe things

They use questionnaires and various officious cabals to determine your status

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This was along the lines of allowing one or two or may be three access to our workshops

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For example, you may be better calling it hobbyrooms

Words matter to the clergy

At one point we were considering changing the name of our local park from Local Park to Local Gardens, each has a different legal status and a private park was more vulnerable to compulsory purchase legislation

Many words have a specific meaning in law

We are DBS vetted Michael, I can't see any problem with my statement regarding vulnerable adults.

Why all this talk about entitlement to a check? Surely the relevant thing here is any obligation to be checked. I cannot see any legislation that would compel Bob to get a check.

Russell.

The smoothness of your dealings with the council will also depend heavily upon the individual you have dealing with your case

They are massively inconsistent, ranging from total moron to professional and decent

It's like dealing with the police in a third world nation, you never know what kind of git you're going to get

Bob (op) if its any help look at what the scouts provide for even the smallest groups - **LINK**

Edited By Lofty76 on 11/05/2014 11:44:10

One of the members of our club runs a Scout beaver group so will have a word with him next time I see him.

There should really be a "holding association" for model engineer clubs which can cover these issues and give proper guidance to clubs, like they do with the Scouts

The ME magazine, which benefits in no small part from the ME community, should really have been doing this from 50+ years ago

Edited By Ady1 on 11/05/2014 12:01:01

Ady

I agree that such an association might be of value - there is a site which lists all (?) the ME clubs in the country and there certainly used to be a federation of clubs in the south of England. If such federations still exist these would surely be the right place for guidance etc. None of this will be for "free" however so are clubs (and their members) willing to pay the costs of such an organisation? I don't think that the model press - that are, after all, only businesses existing for profit - can be expected to enter areas like this.

Norman

I don't think that the model press - that are, after all, only businesses existing for profit - can be expected to enter areas like this.

If you don't plan for future profits then you will have no future profits?

It should really have been sorted out a long time ago when the hobby was buoyant.

The ME magazine was for decades the sole focal point which all the UK clubs could refer to on a regular basis

Edited By Ady1 on 11/05/2014 12:36:24

Been paying for years **LINK**

Thanks Lofty

That's just what I was thinking of - but it was a bit vague ( what isn't these days!) as it's some years since I was a club member.

So Ady Good News! you will see, if you follow Lofty's link, that the guidance you advocate IS available.

Regards

Norman

The current issue of ME (4482) has an article about the subject of young model makers, which I think is directly relevant, some are even working with a Lathe.

Edited By V8Eng on 11/05/2014 18:51:52

As I understand it, the folk who need to be vetted are those who "regularly come in to contact" with young or vulnerable people. So try to get together with other members of your club so that you only guide/instruct/demonstrate on an irregular basis.

You do not want to fall foul of the jobsworths who, lacking any real knowledge, say "NO", just in case, and to prevent then having to take any responsibility.

The ultimate in this kind of stupidity is the church that decided that even the bell ringers had to be CRB approved.

The list of groups needing approval verged on "If you are not CRB approved, you shouldn't come to church".

As a teacher, my wife was forbidden to oversee primary school children in the toilets.

(Not a tacit admission that the LEA was employing paedophiles was it? - but if you'd met some of the parents! Forgive me for being cynical and practical!)

My desperate worry is with so many folk hiding behind Health and Safety, and calling for written Risk Assessments, we are well on the way to breeding folk who WILL injure themselves, (because they have never learned to think for themselves and about their next action) because there was no warning sign posted up!

We NEED young folk in the hobby, to keep alive skills, and so that they get the satisfaction of making or repairing something. How many items are scrapped because some small part has failed, but no one knows where to obtain the parts, or how to fit them? In some cases, the repair that we are likely to make will result in a better, more reliable and durable product than the "built in obsolesence/cost reduced too far" item.

Encourage the youngsters, but train them to behave safely, but take care what you do in case you are accused of misbehaviour.

Full marks to the clubs and societies that do encourage and train young members! Keep up the good work!!

Howard

I quite agree with your sentiment Bogs, however, the rest of the world has moved on.

When I was three I lost part of a finger in a workshop accident, yes, three.. I was 'helping' (by generally getting in the way probably) when a new 6" vice was being fitted to the workbench, unfortunately didn't see my hands holding onto the top of the bench and put the vice down on my finger, result, a rush to the local A&E and a lifetime of being digitally challenged.

That was well over half a century ago, and could you imagine the sort of questions that would have been asked today, not to mention possible police and social worker involvement.

In 1983 at a public running day a child managed to get a small spark and subsequent burn damage to a T shirt. We offered to pay for the damage but the parent advised that it was a risk to be taken and that the damage was accepted as a result of the ride .

Two years ago, a similar occurance where a supposedly new Angora sweater on a child was damaged in the same way the parent said nothing to us at the time but went to the local press who contacted us to virtually demand compensation and to threaten negative publicity should we not comply.

Fortunately that was handled through our insurance company (many thanks to the Southern Federation for arranging that) and there would have been no way that we could have afforded the litigation bill if the case had gone to court.

So, while I think any advice on here is given with the best of intention, if you want to carry on in your own way please do, we on the other hand will try to do it correctly.

"Angora sweater"

The times we now live in, any excuse and you end up getting faced with the possibility of litigation and it has been getting worse over the years, no doubt the downward spiral will continue.

The one thing the majority have not yet caught on to is the fact we all end up paying, as the insurance companies just increase their rates, places close down because they can no longer afford the fees etc.

Bit like you fine a utility company a few million quid, where do you think the money to pay the fine comes from, not like the directors are going to put their hand in their pocket, they just up the charges so we pay their fine, crazy or what.

I hate to think what things will be like in 50 years time and wonder what our children and our children's children have to look forward too.

Thanks for the link Lofty

Ady, I am often at odds with some of the things you say, that is not to say I have no respect for them, I have a different opinion. However, you are so close to the bone on this one. Local Councils are no longer fit for purpose. The following statements are fact:

Bury council have a department which costs a fortune to run but the staff do nothing. Because the Council have a "Duty of Care" to it's employees, the don't sack them, they put them in a special department - like Playschool.

The Directors below the Chief Executive have NO QUALIFICATIONS, for anything, nor hands on experience either (check this yourselves) so they hire managers to do the actual work who do have the requisite qualifications and then run around all day having "meetings" demanding reports are 'on my desk first thing'.

I have no connection with Bury Council whatsoever (but I do have a very senior 'in' nor do I live there. I am also reliably informed that this is the norm throughout the UK. The point that I would make is that these morons in positions of authority care - by and large - for themselves and their pensions so when someone comes along with a proposal or an idea which might sound as if it would make them actually have to do something or expose themselves to risk, they trolley out the old "Healt and Safety" or anything else they can think of to prevent it happening. I resent paying large amounts of money to my local Council as I know a large portion of it is mis-appropriated.

graham.

Just a thought:

Some years back solicitors in the UK were not allowed to advertise. Now we are continually bombarded with "Have you had an accident that wasn't your fault? Contact us and we'll make you rich." type of advertisements.

Now many many people are afraid to do anything for fear of being taken to court for minor accidents and insurance premiums rocket.. Cause and effect?

Russell.