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Geoff Sheppard	18/04/2011 16:12:05
80 forum posts 1 photos	Steve I appreciate the point you're making, but there's a very fine line between 'transmit' and 'receive' in this situation. If all the drawings are not prepared to the same standard then it would be very difficult to advise on interpretation. Giving advice would be a bit of a guessing game. Geoff
Donald Wittmann	18/04/2011 18:01:12
40 forum posts	I did'nt think that I would ever agree with Terryd, but he is spot on with the idea about how to decipher engineering drawings correctly. If you can't understand the drawing[s] how are you going to build the item? Jesus 2 agreements in 1 day, because Graham is also correct about the frequent use of the phrase "it's near enough". Maybe, just maybe have I begun to see the light? and there is more to the people on here. Donald.
Steve Garnett	18/04/2011 18:14:22
837 forum posts 27 photos	Posted by Donald Wittmann on 18/04/2011 18:01:12: Maybe, just maybe have I begun to see the light? and there is more to the people on here. Goodness, that sounds like damning with faint praise... Personally, I tend to judge ideas on their merit, rather than on the basis of who had them...
Donald Wittmann	18/04/2011 19:05:07
40 forum posts	Steve I will certainly give praise where it is due,and mean it. Beginners must be given the chance to learn how to interpret engineering drawings that is 1 of the fundamentals, the "fag packet sketches" are quite often only understood by the "fag packet sketcher" and no one else, that is why we have drawing standards, but very few newcomers will be able to fully decipher them without some form of tuition. Im sure that Terryd does not mean the whole kit and cabodle of G D&T but just the basics. Graham, Yes standards have certainly slipped from Britains once lofty peak. I have seen engineering from both sides of the fence from Germany and Britain and as it stands now there is no comparision . British society, and the education system has a lot to answer for as regards to the lack of pride in the job. I' m not having a go at Britain as there are still some very good Engineering firms left but they are getting rarer. The H&S taking lathes and milling machines out of schools tells it's own story. It pains me to say it but the way things are shaping up Britain will soon be a nation of call centres. Donald.
Ian Abbott	18/04/2011 19:40:29
279 forum posts 21 photos	Though Terry's intention is to assist in decyphering drawings, a series of articles would in fact help in teaching drawing to beginners, just by explaining how everything works together. I think that those of us who learned engineering drawing, used it over the years and progressed into CAD would find it quite interesting, particularly given the multitude of opinions on what's good an what's not. Ian
Dusty	18/04/2011 20:06:42
498 forum posts 9 photos	I fear that Terry is preaching to the converted, on this Forum. I would applaud any attempt at teaching us all, as I know we would all learn something from such an excercise. If it only improves the quality of drawings sent to David for publication it would be worthwhile. I like Steve Garnett am hacked of with drawings with multiple datums or datums in the middle of nowhere and you have to go back through 7 or 8 dimensions to find where they originated. I think everyone should be capable of producing a reasonable engineering drawing before they indulge in 'Satans Tool' I mean CAD.
John Olsen	18/04/2011 20:11:53
1294 forum posts 108 photos 1 articles	I purchased one of Kozo Hiraokas books, not because I wanted to build the particular locomotive, but simply because of the beauty and clarity of his drawings. Because his drawings are so good, you can learn a lot from the book. Not all of us have the skills to work to that standard, although with the modern tools it is getting easier to produce a good drawing. Back when I endured 12 months in a drawing office, it was really hard to produce a good drawing because essentially you couldn't afford to make any mistakes, as erasing them just made a mess of things. Nowadays, with CAD you can at least get rid of the errors without leaving the original looking smudged, and with solid modelling programmes you can also produce rather nice isometric drawings with very little effort. It is still important to include the right dimensions in the right places and also the right views. So I think that a bit of guidance on good practice would not go amiss..well illustrated with good and bad examples of course. OK, it might not interest some...do you really imagine that everyone likes every article? So long as there is a balance it will be OK. regards John
David Clark 1	18/04/2011 20:19:42
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles	Hi There I learnt my engineering from Model Engineer by reading it in the school library. In industry I had English and American projection drawings in the same company. I also had fag packet drawings. Perhaps this is partially why I don't normally have problems finding my way around most drawings in Model Engineer. On the odd occasion where we could not figure out the drawing, out came the plasticene and a 3D model was made. I always studied the drawing for a few minutes on simple drawings and thought about the method I would use to machine it. The difficult drawings would be looked at for an hour or two before setting up and cutting metal. Normally I will get the drawings about a day before print day if I am lucky. I check them for errors, they are dropped into the pages and off to the printer. I try not to make mistakes but we will never be perfect. regards David
michael cole	18/04/2011 20:28:17
166 forum posts	I trained with the MOD(N) in the drawing office and I sometimes stuggle with the drawings in ME and MEW. Yes to a series on reading drawings. For some reason I find Mr Hall's drawings differcult . Mike
Terryd	18/04/2011 22:35:16
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Sorry Howard that you think it would be dry to read about how to interpret and understand complex technical graphics. I recognise that attitude from the many adolescents I have met over the years who can't be bothered with books or reading 'cos they're boring.' I must admit that there have been many times when I was studying that I found things 'boring' but unfortunately that is part of learning at time, it can't always be exciting. CAD is ok and I have been working with parametric CAD programs (mostly AutoCad and ProDesktop as used by Aerospatiale) for at least 18 years and am able to produce some workable 3d designs and animations and have taught many youngsters to do the same. In fact I still get quite a lot of ex students greeting me on the street or in the pub and thank me for inspiring them to become Engineers, Graphic Designers and even one Shoe Designer. However there are very many existing designs out there made to traditional BS standards or as near to them as makes no difference and there is still no real substitute for orthographics when conveying detail. (That is British Standards, not bog standards). The argument you put forward about boring articles is of course very relevant, and there are many boring articles in ME and MEW which I skim over and put on the back burner. I do not for example pore over every word of the Club news articles or the Q1 series etc for example because they bore me to death, but I still read the rest of the magazine. I also agree about Mogens drawings but his are not the only ones available there are very many orthographics that beginners may come across as kit drawings as well as original designs and they need to be able to read those. Of course in your argument that we ought not to bother about 'usta' I assume that we should scrap all our steam engines locomotives and older technologies because that's how it 'usta' be, and only look to now and the future and not how we 'usta' do things. You must really celebrate our industrial decline 'cos that's how we 'usta' do things? As for 'getting a life' I think that I have an ok one and regret that you are getting so personal, it really is not necessary. You know nothing about me or my life. I don't normally discuss personal details but in your case I will make an exception. I am now retired after a very successful series of careers. I followed an apprenticeship with a large Engineering concern and worked in the toolroom. I have three University degrees from very distinguished institutions (Including one in Engineering and Mathematics, and one in Graphic Design plus an MA in Software Engineering), am considered intelligent (member of Mensa) and attractive. I have two children, one is a PhD in marine biology and works at the University of Queensland (lovely place to visit) while my daughter is a senior manager with a very large German based publisher and has just returned from a very successful business trip to Hong Kong and the far East where her husband also travelled to set up branches to his business. My wife to whom I am absolutely devoted, as she is to me, is a very attractive and accomplished business woman and computer technologist 20 years younger than myself. In the next couple of days we are off to visit our property in France for a couple of weeks and I will return there for the summer after brief return to the UK after Easter to complete the setting up of my UK workshop. Following that we are returning to France earlier than normal this summer as we wish to visit the music festival in Carhaix as we cannot manage Glastonbury this year We have decided not to travel to France in our van this summer, as we have enough wine at the moment in our cellar to see us through for a year or so. So we now have to decide if we have enough room in mine or my wife's MX5s with the hood off given the rather good weather forecast or whether we really should be practical and take our rather large executive saloon. Decisions decisions!! - is that enough of a life for you or should I fit in more - I could go on and on? As I said earlier there are many young people out there who thank me for my inspiration in determining their successful careers and my support and help in getting there, and I find that thanks enough for a successful professional life, my personal one being extremely satisfying. How about you, what about your life? Many kind regards Terry P.S. I had a chance to make several international trips over the last couple of years with my wife and I can recommend Sri Lanka, the seafood is wonderful, while I also enjoyed Zimbabwe and Botswana - lovely people despite their problems, but I think I enjoyed the scenery in the Andes most of all - you really should try it. I must be off now Howard, I've got to go and get a life! Terry Edited By Terryd on 18/04/2011 22:55:11
Steve Garnett	18/04/2011 22:36:14
837 forum posts 27 photos	Posted by Ian Abbott on 18/04/2011 19:40:29: Though Terry's intention is to assist in decyphering drawings, a series of articles would in fact help in teaching drawing to beginners, just by explaining how everything works together. I'm pretty sure that this is the right way around - figure out what's in a drawing and how it's constructed before attempting your own. That's certainly a good reflection of how I was taught at school back in the '60s. Fortunately we had a joined-up system whereby you could actually attempt to make some of the things you'd designed and drawn (within reason), and I certainly learned a lot by doing this. I started out by making wooden models of things from my drawings, and progressed to metal later. We spent years doing all drawings in pencil, and it was only quite late in our training that we were introduced to the 'joys' of inking - none of us could afford Rotring pens, so I regularly spent days with inky fingers. I discovered later that Rotring pens didn't make much difference to this! Interesting thing about fag-packet drawings though - I still use them, usually when that critical link between having a drawing and actually machining it doesn't go quite according to plan, and needs modifying. And even when I've modified an 'official' CAD drawing, I tend to keep the fag-packet ones. No, not really fag packets - I don't smoke, and anyway there are too many Govt. Health Warnings on them these days - no room left. But as Graham alludes, where does this happen in the education system any more? If somebody doesn't document some of this stuff, it's going to disappear within a generation, due to us being a post-industrial society now. I've been told that some of this process is the basis of modern CDT teaching, but I bet students don't really appreciate the CAD stuff they immediately start with - they take it for granted, but I'd say that a true appreciation only comes after you've had to do it all by hand. One of the things I really appreciate about CAD is being able to annotate drawings; my hand-lettering was never that wonderful, and it took ages. So even though I appreciate Geoff's point about there being a fine line between reading/interpreting a drawing, and doing one yourself, I still think that Terryd is attempting to start from the right point in the process. It certainly worked for me, and I don't see why it shouldn't work for anybody else, whatever age they start doing it. And its absence from MEW over the years seems to be a somewhat curious omission, I must say. And like a lot of the other respondents to this thread, I'm not saying this because I want or need it - I truly believe that it should be there for the good of beginners.
Ramon Wilson	18/04/2011 22:59:57
1655 forum posts 617 photos	You know I'd really like to add something to this but what can I say - it's all been said - is there really anything to add that's been missed? So many good reasons put forward to uphold Terry's original offer made in good faith in the interests of most (though I accept not all) model engineers - and not neccessarily only the beginner. If nothing else Terry you can sleep easy tonight knowing many of us can see that what you are saying is for the good of the hobby. Ramon Edited By Ramon Wilson on 18/04/2011 23:02:34
Terryd	18/04/2011 23:24:51
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi Ramon, Once more your measured and kind words of wisdom are much appreciated, Thank you and best regards. Terry Edited By Terryd on 18/04/2011 23:25:14
Nicholas Farr	19/04/2011 00:54:40
3988 forum posts 1799 photos	Hi Ramon, not many more ways of saying what has been said, but I think I have said before that a late cousin of mine always said from the time I first meet him that "every day is a school day" and over the years I have come to realise it is true. No matter how well or how long one has been doing anything you can always learn something new about it, someone else has learnt something you haven't and vice versa. An engineering background should always give you some sort of edge of understanding drawings, even if you don't grasp every aspect of them, but as it has been pointed out, not all ME's have an engineering background. Myself I believe I have always had a natural ability to understand mechanical things and being able to interpret most drawings and sketchs, but I can't say I know all the rules and standards about them. I also don't believe that anyone finds every thing in every issue of ME or MEW interesting, I find many of them have a lot of non-interesting things to me in them, but then I'll read a letter that someone has written or a posting on here that has a reference in one or the other mag' and some interest is sparked off by that aspect of the artical, the artical itself still has no interest to me though. Regards Nick.
Bill Pudney	19/04/2011 01:00:18
622 forum posts 24 photos	Hello chaps, This is a very interesting debate. However I think that a fundamental point has been missed. That point is, that a drawing should enable someone to make something. cheers Bill Pudney
Terryd	19/04/2011 01:30:59
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi Bill, That is exactly my point and I don't think it was missed. Best regards T
Sam Stones	19/04/2011 02:52:29
922 forum posts 332 photos	At midday in Melbourne, there are 61 responses after less than two days. That is saying a lot about Terry’s idea. I was also expecting more responses with regards to the little test. Are you too embarrassed to speak up? No, it’s not a trick question Nick. It has everything needed to construct the SIDE elevation, and makes the point about `reading’ a drawing and the need for acceptable standards. Have a look at Steve Garnett's posting on 18/04/2011 13:46:13. He mentions SWMBO and her `instant’ recognition of the missing view. Congratulations to her! Hi Dick, And I thought I was old. Terry, You mentioned Spatial Awareness. That’s something quite a few engineers appear to lack. Geoff, Could it be that you are related to the man who most inspired me at school? His names was Robert (Bob) Sheppard and taught Practical Drawing at a Lancashire Secondary Modern. Steve, I was delighted when (c.1960) we switched to ink drawing and `Page’ pens, and were able to get rid of all that graphite dust. Mind you, mistakes needed to be erased with an electric eraser, which could easily burn a hole through the tracing paper. I’m probably babbling on too much, but . . . at a factory producing a wide variety of plastics mouldings (in those days they were thermosetting materials), we had to `tool up’ for a Bakelite switch plate. It was one of those small but extremely complicated shapes with faces, angles and curves which only a switch manufacturer could invent. To make sure we had all of the correct dimensions, it was decided that we should reconstruct the drawing from the dimensions provided. No matter which way we tried, we couldn’t get any part of the drawing to meet where it should have met. Finally, the drawing was sent back to the customer so that they could review it and offer comment. I can’t recall the outcome, because I moved on to work with another company, but this was another example of why drawing standards and an ability to be able to read them are important. When I was first introduced to Automotive Industry drawings here in Australia, (having been fully indoctrinated into 1st angle [English] projection), it felt as if I was being introduced to an appalling mess. It was 3rd angle with reference points somewhere in the middle of the vehicle. It was also hard to distinguish between construction and product outlines, because they were all the same thickness. Ugh! Let me say also (as if it weren’t obvious), that I delight in seeing the old stuff , like the escapement drawing in `With the Watchmaker at the Bench’ by Donald De Carle c.1933, a style I often tried to emulate. Here's a copy . . . Regards to all, Sam I wonder where the yellow went?
Richard Parsons	19/04/2011 07:34:59
645 forum posts 33 photos	One thing I hate is when someone tells me that I must do this or that before I can enjoy my hobby. I was told by some nurk that before I could join whatever I would have to attend a series of courses (lasting about 4 years). I am afraid I gave them a ‘dusty’ reply. I was then given a load of ‘verbals’ about my ‘attitude’ and that I should understand that they knew best and to use their facilities etc I needed to take the proscribed courses. I do not know (nor do I want to know) what BS 308 is – it could be Boiling Stoppage no 308 for all I care. I have no idea what a 1^st or 3^rd angle is. I have seen drawings made by a ‘super designers/engineer’ (with a D.Phil) for something things which could never be made. I have heard of people, who were told to ‘work to the drawing’, and produced a box full of swaff. Try drilling a 13/16”hole into a ¾” boss. A SNAFU as usual. needless to say the designer was never to blame. When I tried to join a local M.E. club ‘they’ visited my ‘shed’. They were very critical of some of my tooling (homemade stuff). I had only bothered to finish those surfaces which were necessary for precision and the way in which the tool worked. I should have surfaced every bit of the thing. To them even the natural finish of BMS was not good enough. I used ‘black iron', and on some bits I had just brushed off the rust. The tools worked and did what I wanted. The day when I have to please some jumped up little toad by years of study and courses in things I am not interested in or have to ask permission to enjoy myself. That is the day ‘I man the barricades’. End Rant but I feel better for it. Edited By Richard Parsons on 19/04/2011 07:39:16
David Clark 1	19/04/2011 08:04:34
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles	Hi There I will ask about a drawing series in the MEW survey. That will answer the question. regards David
KWIL	19/04/2011 09:32:13
3681 forum posts 70 photos	I am with Terry and Sam on spatial awareness, am I unique in being able to look at a "proper" drawing with dimensioned views, to construct a vision in my mind of the 3D object and to rotate it (again in my mind) just like the modern computer programs allow you to do? I think not, if the information is enough to do that, then the drawing is OK.

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