Anyone know where I can get hold of 'Gauge Rods'

In your postings you have mentioned that you have advisors and horological experts, surely they would be able to you what the preferred, ideal, best, or correct method of making these parts to size is, rather than saying (as above) what is unsuitable.

Watch and clockmakers have been making these parts for hundreds of years and there must be well established practices documented so you should not need to reinvent the wheel. The one book I would recommend is George Daniels 'Watchmaking'.

Can we deduce that you are learning horology? you show no details in the member profile so have no idea even which country you are in.

Ian P

All good points Ian. It looks to me like this person is trying to gain skills by consensus questioning and shortcuts rather than watching a mentor and learning himself by practice. Clearly basic measurements are not understood. I'm not sure why so many are still trying to help this person with these oddball and unnecessary methods he brings up.

Jeff it is it more the case you are joining in as the bully you evidently are. I am a member of a horological forum and have the personal guidance od a top craftsman. I come to this forum to improve my basic machining skills which I am grateful for. When such advice is above that asked for I politely move on. What do you mean Jeff basic measurements are not understood I could easily reveal my advisor who has been US craftsman of the year and is respected as top guy on the best known horological forum. Think what you like Jeff its simple I have the advice from a top dog , I listen to other opinions but not usually from the same league. The only way any one becomes really good is by scacrifice, I guess I have to put up with the likes of your rudeness to get the nice guys help...certainly no quick way.

Why not just be polite voice your opinion and except others have a right to differ. You can be better than your post

Chris

Enough personal stuff, either just don't read, reply or use the ignor button

As is usual on the forum the question gets answered in the first reply and confirmed in the second as pin gauges are "precision ground small round rods" that the OP was looking for.

There are not that many here who do horological work so the answers are going to be from an engineering perspective rather than more specific to clock making so some of what has been suggested may seem odd to the regular members.

Thinking about the use of these rods now that we know what context they are being used for I can see and understand the logic.

-Parts too small to be able to hold a depth mic against, ditto use of the depth function on callipers

- Average line thickness on a steel rule to thick

-Working in a small space between ctrs so even if you could use the above you would have to remove tailstock to get them in each time to check size

- Probably working with a graver so no handwheel dials to use

+ Can be used while the lathe is running

+ more than likely working with magnification so able to "gauge" the difference between rod & work more accurately

As I see it you would use these much like a wood turner will hold a pair of firm leg callipers in one hand while setting diameters using a parting tool held in the other hand. So left hand holds the rod offering it up towards the rear of teh work while right hand works the graver until the shoulder is lined up with the rod. If anyone does not follow than ask and I'll mock up a photo.

Looks like a very good summary to me, Jason

MichaelG.

Just found this on the Tube, although he does not use rods you can see him using a master and then the various components to "gauge" the lengths and how he creeps up on the sizes. Though I think he got the for of the first wheel a bit loose no doubt due to not being able to concentrate while making a video as well

I also like that quick action rest that can be moved out the way and repositioned to a set point very quickly

Edited By JasonB on 07/09/2019 08:07:17

That's how I imagined them being used too. Thing is, what species of pin gauge does Chris need to achieve his goals?

Trouble with buying pin gauges is it takes one into the world of big money precision. For example, Cutwel offer a set of Mahr Pin Gauges covering 0.01 to 0.5mm for nearly £1500. More affordable from Cutwel are Insize gauges covering 0.02 to 0.5mm at under £200. Note that more sets have to be bought if bigger sizes are also needed. Ebay is more affordable, with sets starting at about £114 but the range of sizes available may not be suitable. None of them come with handles, so a set suitable of pin vices would be a good purchase too.

Slip gauges often come up second-hand, but I don't recall seeing pin gauges being offered. Might be because they're more easily damaged and lost!

My feeling is a small number of home-made pins turned on the end of, say, 10mm diameter rod with enough length kept to serve as a handle, and calibrated with an ordinary workshop micrometer would be fit for purpose? Easy enough to make on a Sherline leaving the money saved to be spent on more difficult tooling.

Dave

If making my own I'd use a couple of standard stock diameters and then you only need a couple of holders say 1/8" & 1/4", you would save money on the amount of stock used by keeping them short.

Well you know I was going to have to give it a try. Very rough setup and not the ideal tool for the job and just doing it by eye with the phone in the way, drill shank also had achamfered end that did not help. Rod measured 0.1935" (5.0mm drill shank) best I could measure the length produced 0.192" to 0.193" so could easily be improved upon if needed.

.

Short answer, Dave ... He doesn't need to buy anything

There is no point trying to treat this as a metrology exercise: The old watchmakers used impromptu methods, and that's what you need to learn when making one-off replacements [or even small batches].

I do have one watchmaker's lathe that has a series of notches cut in the tool-rest, which he used an aid to positioning the graver for roughing-out balance staffs; but that's about as far as it goes.

In repair work: Parts are 'gauged' by reference to the old worn or broken item ... or just made to fit.

Unless I am very much mistaken: Chris will never be in the business of mass-producing interchangeable parts ... and therefore every job will be a one-off.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Thanks, as always, to Jason, for getting out there and doing a video 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/09/2019 09:09:38

Yes as I said earlier and just showed the shank of a drill is going to work and if you need something in between then just make a rod as and when required, no harm in grinding the end off square if you want. A set of 1.0mm - 5.9mm drills will be towards the top of a must have list anyway so better to spend on them than a set of gauges most of which won't be used or as Michael says just use one part to gauge another..

No need - Jerry Kieffer on NAWCC

The first photo in this thread is from one of his posts.

Andrew

And interesting that he says he just used the rods to measure with and then uses the handwheels to make the cut to the measurerment.

He also calls them PINS not rods which could have saved everyone a lot of time.

Never think of him with regards to clocks and watches, does make a good engine though

Edited By JasonB on 07/09/2019 15:34:16

Just to further confirm that gauge (US gage) pins are being referred to have a read of this where Jerry is mentioned several times and his sketches used.

As we now know he is comparing parts to the pins of known diameter to get an actual size to then turn his handwheels to you are really going to need a set of pins like the one shown. Making your own will just introduce an element of error between what you are able to actually turn and how you use a micrometer to measure the pins.

It is certainly nice work Mr. Kieffer does but If I work according to his method I would not be making money at all. Niko.

To measure/assess/gauge/judge the distance between shoulders on a part being turned, the use of circular rods or pins looks to be an less than ideal method.

Surely it would only take a few minutes work with a bit of scrap sheet metal to make the end of a flat strip the exact width of the required distance. One would need the ability to file the end of the strip with nice clean and square edges (finish with an oilstone) to the exact width which could be measured with micrometer. One corner could have a small chamfer so it sits against the reference shoulder, the flat face on the edge of the strip would give a much better visual indication of the shoulder width than any cylindrical gauge ever could.

No need to buy an expensive set of gauges either.

Ian P

Thanks, I think, Jason - another interesting 'rabbit hole' to explore when have a few minutes.
I was surprised in your previous link to see the flank of the graver being used when I had the idea that the diamond point would be used as in the Eccentric Eng lathe tool.
DaveD

on further consideration, a smooth surface would be required, using the point might result in something more akin to making a thread...........

Edited By Meunier on 07/09/2019 21:38:09

I think it's being used as a tangential tool.

.

Indeed it is [the action is very much like that of a wood-turner's skew chisel]

On another of Chris's threads **LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=144147&p=3

After repeating my recommendation that he read Saunier ... I commented:

"I will, genuinely, be very interested to know how you get-on; turning a staff with any tool that is not making a shearing cut."

MichaelG.

A graver is really a tool with variable geometry as you control the angle of attack simply be the angle you present it to the work, for brass you raise the handle to get little or no top rake, for steel you lower it to get more rake. Pivoting it horizontally will give different front and side angles.