Forum sponsored by:
Milling collet arbor jammed in milling machine
| mgj | 19/09/2009 22:48:05 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Ah well - when I did my young officers course, a very few (the Berlin Squadron and the gunner OPRA) were still on Centurion, though us Chieftain regiments still had Cent recovery vehicles. So we got our V12 fix daily - though it wasn't supercharged, and it wasn't actually a Merlin - it was a Meteor and although it had Rolls Royce on the rocker boxes they were actually built by Rover. Later I ran the Trials Section at Chertsey, and we had a tug with a Gryphon in it for pulling the early Challengers. (After the war many Gryphons ended up in MTBs which is where this one came ftrm. 1100 horse with little armour and no turret is still quite fun - esecially with a genuine crash box - double declutch up and down. And about 5-6 gallons per mile x country. Now thats what you call ecologically friendly driving. (The Cents were a bit more economical at about 3-5 GPM) Still the sound of a real Merlin or Gryphon is just fabulous. We were later stationed at Saffron Walden, (Debden) just down the road from Duxford, and a lot of the piston engined fighters used hold over us quite regularly. Lovely to watch - brings a lump to your throat. |
| chris stephens | 19/09/2009 23:27:26 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Meyrick,
How nice to hear the voice of reason, well words at least.
My evening shall now be spent watching our Badger in the garden, eating his fill of peanuts and dog food. Simple pleasures are the best, what?
chris stephens |
| John Littler 1 | 20/09/2009 16:05:42 |
| 6 forum posts | Hi I have been watching the posts on the ME site re a stuck chuck in a ZX 15 mill. I have a Chester Champion, which I think is identical to the Warco ZX 15. Now I may, being a beginner, be missing something obvious, but my mill has a slot in the quill, visible at full extension, in which, having removed the drawbar, I tap a No 3 taper wedge; a smart blow on the big end of this with a 1lb hammer removes any tight tooling, with no risk to bearings etc, always bearing in mind that the falling chuck can damage the table, and if the blow is too gentle, the wedge can bounce back out, and hit something, or someone, fragile. |
| chris stephens | 20/09/2009 16:35:10 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi John,
I bow to your greater knowledge of such things.
Your method is "best practice" and should used in preference to all others when the situation arises.
If I was to be sarcastic, I might say that there are those amongst us who might say "It beggars belief to think that hitting the spindle, even via a wedge, with a hammer was to be publicly recommended" but what the heck, go for it!
 What's this about beginner, I have seen your work. "Beginner" is a state of mind, if you can produce the end product to the right standard, it matters not how long you have been doing it. In metal munching, the end product is the important bit, but hopefully you enjoy the journey too.
chris |
| Julian | 20/09/2009 20:17:31 |
| 8 forum posts | First of all, very many thanks to ALL of you, for taking the trouble to reply. I've been working away all week, so this is my first chance to say thanks. I'm going to try and make the wedges, as suggested by Peter. However.... I'll have to use the mill to make them .... so perhaps I'll leave the draw bar off when I start the milling! Using all the precautions suggested by some of you.
I've never been a professional engineer, just read books to gain what little knowledge I have so far, so any H&S issues are on my own head.
I hope the bearings won't be so shot that I can't do the milling.
With regards to over-tightening the drawbar; when I used the collet chuck originally, it was in my Boxford lathe and I tightened it just as hard then - but it used to pop out easily from there. But my boring head, also 3MT, pops easily out of both the mill and the Boxford - so I can't fathom the logic. Anyway, if I get the b***** thing out, I will relieve the middle three fifths as suggested by Circlip.
Once again, many thanks to all and I'll let you know (later this week with any luck) how I get on.
Best wishes,
Julian
PS any of you more-skilful--than-me engineers live near Bristol? ! |
| mgj | 20/09/2009 21:29:15 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Not that near Bristol- Sturminster Newton - but not a million miles if you are pressed and need access to a machine for a specific job. PM me if necessary. You are quite safe - my mill has an R8 taper so you won't jam anything in it.  .M. |
| John Littler 1 | 21/09/2009 18:10:49 |
| 6 forum posts | Seems my second post went into the blue yonder, namely. if your ZX 15 does have a slot through the quill, then morse taper extraction wedges in sizes 1, 2 and 3, my Chester Champion ( old Type) is a No 3, are available v cheaply from the usual tool suppliers. |
| Julian | 21/09/2009 20:56:09 |
| 8 forum posts | John, my ZX15 does indeed have a slot for an MT3 drift, but I didn't have one, so I made one out of mild steel. Unfortunately, when I whacked it into the slot the mild steel smudged and the jammed chuck didn't move!, Now I don't know whether to order a proper drift, or whether to go ahead tomorrow morning and try to make the forked wedges as suggested by Peter.
I think trying to make the wedges will be useful - it'll tell me how damaged the machine is, and if I'm successful, the wedges will be useful and the least damaging way of extraction.
So tomorrow's the day! I'll report on progress (or not) as soon as I can.
Thanks again for all the help so far.
Julian |
| chris stephens | 21/09/2009 22:32:39 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Julian,
A tiny word of caution re. the double wedges, depending on how your chuck is attached to the Morse taper, using the wedges might just remove the chuck and leave the other bit still stuck in quill. I would suggest further trials with John's wedge, only use a proper one and hit it with a sharp blow with a big enough hammer. When you buy one you will note that there is a curved side and a flat side, the curve side goes upwards to match the recess, while the flat side mates with the Morse taper.
Best of luck, lets us all know what happens we are all waitng with baited breath.
chris stephens |
| Peter Tucker | 22/09/2009 04:54:33 |
| 185 forum posts | Julian, All MT mills will have a slot for a drift; however my meagre experience is that the drift dose not shift a tight taper. My previous cautionary note about using the mill without a draw bar was not H&S related, I recently forgot to install this and had the arbour come out ;chewed the work horribly, broke the end mill, scared the arbour closing nut, I had expected scaring to the male and female MTs fortunately there was none. I think I may be able to explain the physicists behind David’s caution against having the draw bar partially unscrewed, if (when) the arbour comes free the tool will still be against the work and will slow it however the draw bar head could contact the spindle and rotate under power thus screwing the MT back home with some force. If your chuck has been designed for milling it should be monolithic with the MT otherwise it could separate while milling.
To any who may crave a spell checker, why not write your posting in your word processor programme, spell check, copy, and past to the posting box. I have.
Peter. |
| chris stephens | 22/09/2009 10:42:55 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Posted by chris stephens on 21/09/2009 22:32:39:
Hi Julian,
A tiny word of caution re. the double wedges, depending on how your chuck is attached to the Morse taper, using the wedges might just remove the chuck and leave the other bit still stuck in quill. I would suggest further trials with John's wedge, only use a proper one and hit it with a sharp blow with a big enough hammer. When you buy one you will note that there is a curved side and a flat side, the curve side goes upwards to match the recess, while the flat side mates with the Morse taper.
Best of luck, lets us all know what happens we are all waitng with baited breath.
chris stephens
PS Had a rethink, if chuck is made to proper standards (regretably not always the case) the chuck and taper should be screwed together or made as a solid one piece. I must have been thinking of drills again, blame lack of sleep! |
| Funnyturn | 22/09/2009 10:47:05 |
| 20 forum posts | Does that explain the' physicists' behind David (amongst others)!! Brian |
| chris stephens | 22/09/2009 10:50:11 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Posted by chris stephens on 22/09/2009 10:42:55:
Posted by chris stephens on 21/09/2009 22:32:39:
Hi Julian,
A tiny word of caution re. the double wedges, depending on how your chuck is attached to the Morse taper, using the wedges might just remove the chuck and leave the other bit still stuck in quill. I would suggest further trials with John's wedge, only use a proper one and hit it with a sharp blow with a big enough hammer. When you buy one you will note that there is a curved side and a flat side, the curve side goes upwards to match the recess, while the flat side mates with the Morse taper.
Best of luck, lets us all know what happens we are all waitng with baited breath.
chris stephens
PS Had a rethink, if chuck is made to proper standards (regretably not always the case) the chuck and taper should be screwed together or made as a solid one piece. I must have been thinking of drills again, blame lack of sleep! PPS just had another rethink (thats what happens when you wake up) to use a wedge in the slot, you would have to insert a sliver of metal to protect the end of the threaded hole. If you don't, then the wedge would not have a smooth surface on which to work and would just case harm to both parts. |
| Robert Mullan | 22/09/2009 13:06:18 |
| 12 forum posts | "To any who may crave a spell checker, why not write your posting in your word processor programme, spell check, copy, and past to the posting box. I have."
Obviously spell-checkers are not foolproof.... |
| Circlip | 22/09/2009 13:26:30 |
| 1723 forum posts | Aw that's what might go wrong Peter? Wish I'd thought of that, too subtle for us in the Fxxxwits brigade.
 Regards Ian |
| Ian S C | 22/09/2009 14:59:15 |
 7468 forum posts 230 photos | The taper drift through the shaft only works on a drill chuck with a tang on the end of the taper,the milling chuck has no tang but unlike the drill chuck that is attached to its tape by a Jacobs taper in the chuck its self,the milling chuck's taper is part of the chuck its self,so the two wedges will be ok,or the wedge device used on motor car suspension-no strain of hammering,just tighten the bolts.IAN S.C. |
| John Littler 1 | 22/09/2009 17:47:41 |
| 6 forum posts | Ian, a good point, my milling chuck extends into the slot by 3/8", so a taper wedge works, but it's worth checking first, cos if it doesn't, friend Julian will end up with a stuck drift as well!. I should also have advised that the quill, and the head on the round column should both be firmly locked before the hammer blow. As regards the thread in the chuck, (Chris's point), my chuck has a counterbore at the top end, and therefore a nice smooth land on which the wedge can slide, but again, worth checking. My wedges (commercial) are also hardened ( and presumably let down a bit, or they would break), so I'm not surprised that MS just burred up. I would re-iterate that the wedge should not be "beaten to death"; it's a good sharp blow that does the trick, just like cracking track rod ends on the car. You can, of course, if you have one big enough, use a fork ended compression tool around the quill, with suitable protection for the quill, to initially push the wedge in tight between the chuck end and the top of the slot, when a good smack with the hammer on the bolt head has always worked on track rod ends for me, and will be just as effective on the mill, but there is now another unit to fall onto the table!!. You will get there! |
| mgj | 22/09/2009 18:05:47 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Depends a bit on exactly where the slot is placed, but for sure you don't want to go beasting the top of the taper, then expand it, and find it is imperially jammed - which it may be already.. I'd be inclined to screw or palce a bit of steel in there above the millling taper. Copper/brass or any of the soft metals will deaden the shock and its shock that needs to be generated. Get the wedge tension on, and then apply a bit of a tap from a drawbar type thingy from above in the direction you need the chuck to go, after warming the spindle (not the quill or chuck). If that fails try the vibration system. If that fails its a new spindle and bearings As for the physicists - hopefully one won't be caught by surprise, hopefully the drawbar is loose and clear of the head, hopefully you will be a minimum revs, hopefully you'll have a bit of wood between chuck and bed, hopefully the drop permitted will only be about .25 of an inch so all is contained, hopefully one will be near the e-stop/isolator, and hopefully one will be ready to wind said chuck out if hte work a bit quick. One can of course wait for a accident to turn into a drama if one wishes. Rules as they say, being for the guidance of the wise and blind obedience of fools. |
| chris stephens | 22/09/2009 18:54:41 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Guys,
My, isn't this fun!
The wonderful thing about these sorts of sites/forums or is that fora, bet spell check does not know, is that someone will come up with the answer. Ask any dozen engineers a question and you will most likely get 15 answers, some will work some wont. I have to say that one should not come up with an answer without being in full command of the situation. Had I known that there was a slot for a wedge, I would never have suggested the "rattle" method. It is one of those things that had I been on the spot all would have been clear at first glance.
Now Circlip, I don't actually think you were being accused of being a ****wit, as you were not advocating warp speed or any other speed, as you did not like the method. I think that description was for people with no sense of "feel", and I am quite sure that you do have one.
Meyrick, the voice of reason, well put., if a tad sarcastic. A man after my own heart.
Anyway, I think we should be civil to each other, even if we disagree, it's just not that important, after all its just a hobby .
chris stephens
|
| mgj | 22/09/2009 21:49:25 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Well it wasn't me that said that about rules- someone much wiser. Dr Johnson I think. And I agree entirely with your suggestion as to who may or may not have had whatever kind of wit. Certainly not Circlip (whom I am still blessing in fact as I sedately cut out brown paper gaskets. ). As for this problem - I hope otherwise, but it sounds, given the (severe) hammering the top of the taper has had, that it has been expanded or bruised in some way. It could well be that one should be looking for a press of many tons. Once you get into bashing bits of machine tool with lump hammers you tend to be in trouble! I hope I'm wrong, but it all sounds a little Neanderthal to me - I have a little 4oz ball pein in the workshop, and it makes me wince when I tap anything with that, without an aluminium drift in between. Nor do I think I have ever needed to........... |
Please login to post a reply.
Magazine Locator
Want the latest issue of Model Engineer or Model Engineers' Workshop? Use our magazine locator links to find your nearest stockist!
Sign up to our Newsletter
Sign up to our newsletter and get a free digital issue.
You can unsubscribe at anytime. View our privacy policy at www.mortons.co.uk/privacy
Latest Forum Posts
- *Oct 2023: FORUM MIGRATION TIMELINE*
05/10/2023 07:57:11 - Making ER11 collet chuck
05/10/2023 07:56:24 - What did you do today? 2023
05/10/2023 07:25:01 - Orrery
05/10/2023 06:00:41 - Wera hand-tools
05/10/2023 05:47:07 - New member
05/10/2023 04:40:11 - Problems with external pot on at1 vfd
05/10/2023 00:06:32 - Drain plug
04/10/2023 23:36:17 - digi phase converter for 10 machines.....
04/10/2023 23:13:48 - Winter Storage Of Locomotives
04/10/2023 21:02:11 - More Latest Posts...
- View All Topics
Support Our Partners
Shopping Partners
Subscription Offer
Latest "For Sale" Ads
- Reeves** - Rebuilt Royal Scot by Martin Evans
by John Broughton
£300.00 - BRITANNIA 5" GAUGE James Perrier
by Jon Seabright 1
£2,500.00 - Drill Grinder - for restoration
by Nigel Graham 2
£0.00 - WARCO WM18 MILLING MACHINE
by Alex Chudley
£1,200.00 - MYFORD SUPER 7 LATHE
by Alex Chudley
£2,000.00 - More "For Sale" Ads...
Latest "Wanted" Ads
- D1-3 backplate
by Michael Horley
Price Not Specified - fixed steady for a Colchester bantam mark1 800
by George Jervis
Price Not Specified - lbsc pansy
by JACK SIDEBOTHAM
Price Not Specified - Pratt Burnerd multifit chuck key.
by Tim Riome
Price Not Specified - BANDSAW BLADE WELDER
by HUGH
Price Not Specified - More "Wanted" Ads...
Get In Touch!
Do you want to contact the Model Engineer and Model Engineers' Workshop team?
You can contact us by phone, mail or email about the magazines including becoming a contributor, submitting reader's letters or making queries about articles. You can also get in touch about this website, advertising or other general issues.
Click THIS LINK for full contact details.
For subscription issues please see THIS LINK.
Digital Back Issues
Donate
Register
Log-in
Model Engineer Magazine
- Percival Marshall
- M.E. History
- LittleLEC
- M.E. Clock
ME Workshop
- An Adcock
- & Shipley
- Horizontal
- Mill
Subscribe Now
- Great savings
- Delivered to your door
Pre-order your copy!
- Delivered to your doorstep!
- Free UK delivery!
All Forum Topics > Manual machine tools > Milling collet arbor jammed in milling machine