Definition of Handycrafts in Show competition

I guess it serves to show how 'things have changed' by so many replies that have picked up on the CAD/CAM versus 'physically' created by hand rather than the OP Tony's remark that the item is, quote 'commercially available on line' unquote.

How it's created should have no reference to the question as if one creates something either by knife and fork, pen and paper or indeed computer based methods its none the less a 'creation' by an individual.

To go to the local emporium or on line and purchase something, whether built by an individual or a commercial item, to enter or pass off as one's own work cannot in any way be considered as 'handicraft'

Simples

Tug

Ramon, that is why I asked if Tony could clarify it it was a completed dragon that was purchased and entered or a downloadable file that was used by the entrant to make the dragon from.

If it were bough in as a finished item I don't see why Tony is asking for CAD-CAM-3D to be excluded, in this case you would ask for finished items to be excluded. Sounds more like the Dragon was built from a purchased set of files on a CNC plasma cutter and then assembled and presented by the entrant with little "handwork" involved even if the may have made the plasma cutter themselves.

I would agree that just entering an item that was bought "finished" is not really cricket but what about purchasing plans, a digital file, a casting, an embroidery or knitting pattern all are similar where the "maker" buys another persons design.

Edited By JasonB on 06/08/2023 15:30:53

I think that what we are considering is creativity. The process by which you create something only matters to the creator, wether by hand or machine. As an amateur photographer, I use everything bought except for the image which is shown on the paper, much the same as any artist. In recent years competition rules have evolved to ensure that the basic image is 100% by the photographer. A few years ago an international wildlife competition was won initially by someone using trained animals to create the image, it was withdrawn once the organisers were informed of the use of trained animals. Rules now even go so far as being requested to show meta data of winning image files. I would expect a hand crafted competition winner to be largely that. In model steam while expecting some parts to be bought finiished, such as pipe fittings etc one would not expect to see something like a Polly Engineering kit locomotive as a suitable winner.

Well you can download a DXF file for these at a cost of a mere $15. Operating the machinery I guess requires some skill but the output can neither be considered original nor handicraft.

If on the other hand the item is produced from your original artwork then it may well be handicraft.

John

My local show includes an award for 'Best Overall Display'.

All I need is a tailors dummy or two and I could show a wide range of overalls. What are my chances, do you think?

Cheers, Tim

Very good and very good. But please do not start a thread complaining when someone wins with a boiler suit.

My italics but that's an assumption.

Jason,

Purchasing plans from which to read then turn into a creation - at your own hands - is totally different from purchasing a digital file from someone else, creating it by whatever computer generated means at your disposal and then claiming it as 'handiwork. However, the cardigan knitted for me from a pattern by my other half - took her a couple of years to actually make it mind you - but every stitch was hers. Had she have taken that design and allowed a computer to create it it could hardly be called 'handiwork' or 'craftwork' as it has been traditionally accepted.

A casting is a basic building block - buying a brick does not make one a housebuilder

We are living in a technological rapidly changing world. I have not noticed anyone specifically mentioning 3D printing of which I have no knowledge save that as a user of (some) products. For years I have gained enjoyment from plastic modelling and the enjoyment gained from enhancing models with after market products - that can be painted and even further still be improved upon.

Now though we have self adhesive three dimensional 'decals' pre painted ready to fit cockpit dash boards and panels for a vast number of projects the need to actually model eliminated at a stroke. Extremely detailed and realistic the only work required is to peel the backing paper off and stick it in place. No doubt fine for some but taking the hobby down the wrong road to my mind. It will not be long before the entire cockpit is available I shouldn't wonder and even perhaps the whole model - just buy it and display it. Wheres the handicraft in that I wonder.

Buying a design is one thing - we have all been doing that for years and indeed many before us but 'making something from it by hand' is another - the clue I guess is in the term 'handiwork'

Always you pays your money etc

Best - R

But where does the hand start and stop?

Is it handwork if I wind the handwheel on the mill from one DRO position to another but not handwork if I hold the mouse on the jog button and move the CNC's table from one position to another, where the CNC is little more than a power feed?

You mention the plastic models, Doc showed some parts that he had spent a long time drawing up in CAD and resin printing before painting. Should he be down marked for that against someone who just cut the lesser detailed parts off the sprue and used those?

From what I can recall of the Entry details from the last ME Exhibition a builder is asked to disclose if they have used any parts not made by them eg cut gears, lazer cut frames etc. There is no requirement to say how parts were machined. Should the requirements be changed and if so how should someone designing from scratch and using modern methods be judged against someone working to an old established design and using manual (control not power) machines.

Without moving with the times and just sticking with old traditional methods could add to a decline in entries as I see it so either modify the rules to take into account how things are made or as per my first post split the classes up but that could lead to only a few in each. Judges would also need to have a good understanding of what is involved in producing good work with the modern machines as it is not just press "GO" and wait. I the case of the village fair maybe it would be better to just have a "Craft" competition then encompasses all.

On the subject of castings one only needs to look at posts on various forums by the suppliers of casting kits. Almost all those that are producing new kits or bringing back old ones seem to be using CAD, CAM, CNC, 3D etc and even those that are using old patterns are revising drawings with new CAD revisions, others where suppliers of things like hot brass pressings have gone by the wayside now supply the parts that were once made that way as part machined CNC items. So do all the casting kits from these makers now get downmarked?

I suppose I would define handicrafts or hand crafts as items that have been made by hand and with the aid of simple tools. Anything from a hand knitted jumper to a thatched roof. I would not include anything engineered. I don’t consider model engineering a handicraft.

regards Martin

I'll let you have the last say on this Jason, I'm just getting to old to lock horns over something that as you say is moving on.

I will say this though when I began model engineering 1972-ish that's what I wanted to do - 'engineer' something - not have someone do it for me or a machine to work it all out. Of course you had to move the dial by hand but you have to do it with skill and knowledge and that took a lot of time to acquire - CNC is not the same in that situation and that's after spending the last three years of my working life programming and operating a Haas machining centre writing all the g-code for one offs by hand - no CAM at all.

As I said the world is changing - I don't really wish to move with it now, far too old but if these three engines, all carved by hand by conventional machining were sat next to three identical ones done entirely by CNC I think it would be very unfair to judge one against the other

Tricky territory! I think Tony's Show needs to define what it means by a 'handicraft'. Personally I expect it to mean hand-made with only the simplest machines and no power tools.

As a judge I'd reluctantly accept items made on a treadle lathe, but submissions with any hint of a motor would be rewarded with a flogging!

Marks for:

• original design (don't care if CAD is used)
• doing all the work yourself
• Hand tools only
• Home-made tools and
• Home prepared materials

So an LBSC loco finished by a small-boy using grandad's Colchester, Bridgeport and plasma cutter and standard stock metal would be marked down severely compared with a shapeless hand-knitted cardi made from home-spun wool plucked from a sheep by a ten year old girl.

Other way round at a model engineering show, where different rules apply. There I would expect much of a Gold Medal engine. I'd check the loco's authenticity in detail - counting rivets, period correct colour match, and proper oil-lamps etc. Also apply a hydraulic boiler test and dynamometer run! If suspicious the model will be dismantled to prove it has no commercial bearings, fasteners, or plastics. O-rings in the pump, black mark!

Not important to me what technology was used to build it. That leads to endless complications. For instance, if technology were important, it would be essential to apply a handicap to anything made from British rather than Chinese equipment. Obviously anyone building an engine with inferior Far Eastern tools had to work much harder to get decent results. Their extra skills and dedication compared with well-equipped builders should be acknowledged. I'd reduce a Myford owner's score by 25%, more if they said their lathe was the best ever!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/08/2023 20:09:12

All this shows is that such competitions are best avoided. The satisfaction comes from doing the work.

Since I have just won the National Lottery (which I have not played for years) I am going out to buying a fully machined, all you have to do is use a few spanners, Stuart model steam engine for a few thousand pounds. If I can paint it well I should be winning prizes.

JA

Almost the list I'd have given.

A bit difficult perhaps to agree on what a hand tool is.

The one thing I'd add to the list is "evidence of high level hand skills". The design might be dazzling, original and all yours, the tools used may have all been made by you, and all materials etc. home grown or prepared, but if the hand skills in evidence aren't up to snuff, none of the other things, however good, can compensate.

Really skilled hand work perfectly conceals the fact that it was even done by hand.

"Industry in art is a necessity—not a virtue—and any evidence of the same, in the production, is a blemish, not a quality; a proof, not of achievement, but of absolutely insufficient work, for work alone will efface the footsteps of work...The work of the master reeks not of the sweat of the brow - suggests no effort, and is finished from the beginning."

James McNeill Whistler

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That’s a wonderful quote, Bill … and it immediately brought to mind this little 3-legged bridge in the Charles Frodsham wristwatch:

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Ref: **LINK** https://frodsham.com/wristwatch/index.php

It is made as a flat piece, by CNC … but the tapered profiling is done by hand

I have watched him at work … with the piece simply clamped by his thumb onto a bottle-cork.

Immense skill, and dedication to the craft.

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ Please permit me a small digression to pay tribute to the creator pf that animation:

https://redfernanimation.com/

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/08/2023 07:17:10

I am sure if members of this forum chatted to potential prize winners of a handicraft competition we would be asking about methods of manufacture, about anything that was difficult to do and what tools were used. Surely potential judges could ask similar questions to a short list of top entries and present prizes based not just on the entry but also on the work put into the item. Make an event of it like a lot of the programmes on TV where presenters go around and talk to people who are painting, sewing or cooking. This fuller picture of the entry and the entrant would enable prizes to be awarded based on more than just presentation of an object.

Martin C

I suppose a lot depends on the type of competition. Judges for the local village show may not have a lot of technical knowledge and be better suited to judging cakes or garden produce.

If it were and ME competition then points can be gained buy including some photos of particular setups, showing jigs that were used etc though whether they should be self developed and printed B&W photos and non 3D printed jigs may be upto debate.

I wonder how a paint by numbers painting would fare at an art exhibition? Would a judge be looking at subject matter, or the skill required to keep inside the lines?

Don't get me started on anything produced by Andy Warhol.

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I wouldn’t dream of doing so, lee

Warhol’s approach to Art was [intentionally] the antithesis of Craft

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/08/2023 09:07:22

I would say that

If your hand controls the tool that does the work that creates the item then it is hand crafted

So an item created with a DRO counts, but the same item with CAD/CAM does not

Basically any item made with hand-eye co-ordination is hand crafted

What about the hand that controls the mouse either to design or work the machine.?

Winding a handwheel to position a DRO point shown on a purchased drawing may need less overall skill than if that drawing was created with CAD and then positioned using the handwheel.

What about somethng like gear cutting, would using a division master you made yourself to index the gear then handfeeding the part be any less than using a hole plate. Similar for screws cut with an ELS where cut is put on by hand but carriage moved by the leadscrew.