Complicated post

Steve,

We as ARC have been in this business for nearly 20 years now.

A particular wise trader once told me: 'You do not go out to sell a machine'. When a person has a need to buy a machine, he/she usually knows what they want and come to you to buy.

Over the years we have found a lot of truth in the above. For example, when a person has set their mind on a particular machine or brand - lets say a WABECO, they will never be happy with a purchase of an alternative - in your case - e.g. a SIEG SX3. So what happens next if they buy a SIEG (which you have already ruled out), post purchase, they will always find niggles with which they are not happy, and be filled with regret every time they see the machine.

You have been considering a milling machine for a while now, and this is the second time where Hopper has suggested the SX3 to you. I am grateful for his and others comments about SIEG, but keeping the above in mind, and based on our experience with customers, in my opinion, I think it will be wrong in your particular case, for you to consider an SX3. You should keep going in the direction with which you are happy. After all, this is a hobby = your leisure time - to make you happy, and reading your posts, it isn't as if you are really restricted by any budget.

I do not mean any disrespect by my comments.

Ketan at ARC.

As Stu pointed out the Beaver is bigger than a Bridgeprot which is perhaps why JS couldn't pass it on - just too much for hobbyists to house.
I don't know about R8 being so common. I almost never see anything R8 on ebay which may be their profiling but that doesn't stop them pushing loads of other things at me so not sure.

I suggest starting by looking at the SX3 and equivalent benchtop non-knee mills from others and measure up to see if it will fit. If not then move down to the nest smaller on the common suppliers website and see if it fits. Only after you have settled on the size is there any point in looking at the spindle and motor options.

Dave, I did say that my thoughts are based on the number of threads I have seen here on the forum which at times I have thought too many regardless of the number of machines Warco sell.

It left me having doubts and the feeling that a Warco machine was a bit of pot luck, you are either lucky and get a good one and to be fair they must have more good than bad or you are unlucky and get a bad one. That is just my thoughts though others may not think that way at all. I am going to move up to a larger mill and I did consider a couple of the Warco models but it was what I read at the time that put me off.

Anyway we all pays our money and make our choice I hope Steve gets a machine he is happy with whatever he chooses.

Should perhaps point out that it was not until the beginners series was complete that I found out ARC did not want the items back not that it would have sawyed what I said.

Bit too busy today to join in but was there not a post in the last few days where the owner described his Wabeco as a bag of nails and then there was the other chap who stalled a bridgeport with a facemill so can't be that belts and 3-phase motors are that much better at slow speeds. Just need to use the right feeds and DOC for the machine, tool and job.

Ketan, Redsetter and others make an important point when they ask what the mill is for.

If needed for pragmatic reasons, it's possible to make a value judgement. That is the size and type of machine can be matched to a particular need and budget. In making the match a professional time-is-money outfit would be unlikely to buy a hobby machine, and a hobbyist would be unlikely to spend serious money on a pastime! Is there a particular goal? If not read on.

Model Engineering covers a huge range of interests. Tools may be bought for emotional as well as technical reasons. Nothing wrong with emotion, including nostalgia, as long as its open and honest. I'm into metalwork for interest and experimentation. I don't work against the clock. My efforts are mostly mid-range, neither small precision clockmaking or anything bigger than a brake drum. I don't make models other than as a way of improving my skills. Chinese kit does what I need for the money I'm prepared to spend and it was easy to buy. Others specialise in Locomotives, Stirling Engines, or Traction engines, restorations, or customisation work etc. Their work may be to run, or for display, or to win competitions, or personal gratification but the emphasis is on results. Their needs aren't the same as mine. Another group potters around making improvements to tools and workshop without necessarily making much, indulging a relaxing interest rather chasing targets. Then there are people retired from industry who want to carry on machining at home. And I guess we've all met the guys who buy kit for the bragging rights!

Add to the mix perfectionists, fuss-pots, bodgers, beginners, experts, engineers from non-mechanical fields (computing, electronics, electrical, chemistry...), ex-scientists, ditherers, thrusters, gorillas, the over and under-confident, racists & fanboys, moderns & traditionalists, people who hate or love theory, and the vocal and the silent. It's no wonder there are differences of opinion about which machine to buy!

My advice is to understand and service your needs whatever they are. Not mine or anyone else's. A small Chinese Mill might be just what I need, but rubbish for you. At the extreme, don't buy Chinese if the plan is to put down that guy at the club who bangs on endlessly about his marvellous Connoisseur - but never makes anything! To deal with him you need something spectacular, like a Dean Smith & Grace or a tool-room Holbrook in as new condition with a complete set of accessories!

But if you're a beginner, keen to learn or to do more advanced home-metal work, you really don't need anything special to make a start. A new hobby lathe or mill is a good place to begin, a low risk, low fuss purchase. They're not a once in a lifetime purchase if an upgrade is wanted later.

Life is too short to agonise over buying tools. It's more fun to get on with it. Unless of course debating problems on the internet is what keeps you happy! Armchair engineering is a truly great hobby too...

Dave

One more thought to chuck in the pot, I've previously mentioned my own machinery, which it looks may not be appropriate for you.
A good second hand machine, depending on its source, may come quite well equipped, thus saving you lots of cash on tooling and vices etc.
Carefully selected and priced, it has a pretty much fixed value, whether you are the third, fourth or fifth owner.
If you decide it's not for you, then you should be able to sell it on for little different to what you paid.

You will however have gained experience, and by then know why it wasn't for you, and thus what to look for in the replacement machine.

If you buy the wrong machine new, you will always be selling at a loss.

Bill

There are always machines that we wish we had or could buy. In training, I spent a lot of time on Cinicinattis, vertical and horizontal. Lovely machines! But a total overkill, and not really suitable, for drilling 2.5 mm holes before tapping M3!

But when I wanted / needed a Mill, I had neither the money, space or REAL need for such a machine. I settled for a Warco Economy, because it was the largest that would fit into the then shop (The present one was made higher just so that belt cover could be opened with the head at the top of the column ) and it was as much as I was prepare to spend.at the time.

No, it is not ideal. Realigning every time that the head is moved up or down the round column is a PITA, but it suffices for my needs. Really, I would like a dovetail column, or, of there was space a knee machine, AND a horizontal. But you can't have everything.

Whether you buy new, or a secondhand machine, there can be problems. The new Warco shredded the primary belt within six months. The replacement belt, after the motor and pulley were aligned has lasted for twenty years!

The original Chinese belt is still in good condition.

Decide what work you expect to do with the machine, and then buy one with the features that you think that you need, but a little bigger, to accommodate your horizons which will expand as you gain experience.

Buying a machine in haste will probably mean that you spend a lot of time regretting it.

I admire Ketan for saying "If you will not be happy with this machine; don't buy it" He may lose a sale, but avoid having an unhappy customer who complains to all his friends, and anyone else who will listen.

No matter what you buy, do not expect perfection. The machine tool that is ideal for everyone has yet to be designed, let alone manufactured. Nor, for the prices that we pay for essentially hobby machines, you cannot expect Toolroom precision, quality or durability.

The machine that you buy is your personal choice, for good or ill. Choose carefully, so that you are happy with you purchase for years to come.

Howard

I'm confused, that Warco Super Major looks bigger than a Tom Senior ?

Reckon until you've had a few, you won't really know what you want.

Nothing against Chinese machinery, (Although the quality of the few iv'e had has been questionable) but resale value is generally low, so if you do find it's not what you want, be prepared to lose money. You can buy a lot of quality used iron for nearly £3K

Find a decent english, (or indeed German, Swiss or many others) machine and you will not lose if you decide to swap it.

Personally not a fan of round column mills, couldn't live without a quill feed, wouldn't want a MT head, find changing belts a PITA and don't have the time or patience to only take light cuts.

Iv'e found all that out from owning a succession of Mill's with some or all those features

Edited By Alan Waddington 2 on 06/03/2020 17:35:24

The nice thing about industrial mills is the are heavy enough to not vibrate when cutting, most hobby mills will suffer from vibration at least some of the time. Powered rapid traverse on all axes makes a mill a pleasure to use. A mill I lust after is a Deckel FP1 or one of the many clones like the Alexander Master Toolmaker. These are not toys but usually cost a bit as well.

Mike

Well can I say a huge thank you to all who have contributed there own 2 pence worth to this thread. My 1st comment is to Ketan Swali. Whome I assume either owns or runs ARC tools. You totally misunderstood my post. I said I had looked at most of the Chinese machines. Not that I had any definite choice. Of which I think from comments, the Warco has moved back a notch. My main point was that, yes i probably do have enough room to get a old large mill in the garage.

But it would be futile as i cannot think i will ever want to bore etc anything so big that it would need such a machine.

I do not want a very small one & could go down that route only to find it is too small for me. I have just been looking at the ARC site & there is one mill in there that does seem to have everything i would ever need. It is the Sieg SZ3.5DZP. Seems to have plenty of power & lots of nice features of a modern machine. Does anyone know if they have a showroom. Or mail order only.

Steve.

[This posting has been removed]

Arc Euro Trade Ltd.

10 Archdale St, Syston, Leicester LE7 1NA

0116 269 5693

You could give them a ring to see if they have one in stock. Fingers crossed!

Brian

Or just look at the website and see they are awaiting more stock.

I have read and re-read Ketan’s posts. I’m of the opinion that....

Well I've had a good look on you tube & cannot find many recent revues of the Sieg milling machines. Most are a few years old & none of the model I was looking for. Some had said to measure how much room I have in the garage. I have not put up the dividing wall yet. The roof height is 2.4Mtrs. the wall length after I have fitted a large doorway will be around 2.6 Mtrs. So room is not a problem.

Steve.

That'd be me then. No idea how you manage to translate stalling the mill due to be over-ambitious into a problem with belts and 3-phase motors.

Andrew

Talking of stalling. I ran the Myford yesterday at 1.5Hz doing infil on a ring. I tried to stall the chuck by hand. I could not stop the chuck from rotating however hard I gripped the body. So I take back some of my earlier comments on other threads, saying the inverter with a 3 phase motor has low torque at low frequency. It has plenty.

Steve.

NTDWM but for sale on facebook marketplace. £1600 Would make a great first mill, and no chance of losing money on it......

If I read that correctly, you tried to stop a rotating chuck by hand. Do not, ever, do that.

You are a danger to yourself . Stay away from machinery..

There was a comment earlier that geared or belted were better to run flycutters and facemills than a variable DC.

Of the two I would say a belt can be better than geared with the facemills if the work or cut is narrow due to the lower engagement making the gears knock. This applies to "old style" as well as new which may have a 2 speed range option via gears to allow the DC motors to work at their best.

Which brings up the fact that the Warco that was originally mentioned is certainly in the head a design that has been around for many years, often as a Lux or RF machine and is more suited to the old ways of working which is a slower rotating tool and a heavier cut for which the fact it weights 3 times as much as teh SX3.5 will help.

The SX3.5 on the other hand is Sieg's latest benchtop machine and to get the best out of it Steve would be best to forget looking at a lot of youtube videos or reading the old often suggested books. With a spindle that can do 5000rpm as opposed to the Warco's 1700rpm it is better suited to smaller cutters or depths of cut but run and fed far faster.

The usual comment is that an old english machine can remove metal faster and it possibly can on a big cut but if you are working on say aluminium or even low carbon steel you are going to be limited to some extent by not being able to run cutters at anywhere near their capability so will have to use slower feeds to keep chiploads similar, particularly with carbide. So you may win in one respect but loose in another. Another reason for the OP to think about what he intends to do and how he hopes to do it before deciding on what to buy. It is also capable of taking quite large cuts with a facemill in ali, steel and even stainless running at the full 5000rpm as I have seen the videos but this is not recommended as best practice.