Daft question (maybe)

Hello, pgk pgk mentioned Hardinge for a lathe for model engineering !. In my opinion, because I own a HLVH, and as superb as they are, would be hopeless for making models on, for a number of reasons. The tailstock is too heavy to keep pushing up and down the bed, the saddle is too wide, meaning work up near the chuck , awkward. Worse, with the standard 2 speed motor set up, the lowest RPM is 125,, which is too high for certain jobs. Just my 2 cents worth !.

Maybe you should try this mod to the tailstock. Several members on MEM have Hardinge machines for model making

I'm sure my local agri engineers coud fettle up a spare loader ram and pump .... instant remote tailstock..

Unless the OP comes up with some idea what is going to be made there isn't anything other than a very simple answer.

Wabeco and Emco or Boxford but only at a one size. Boxford prices - reckon on circa £12k maybe 15k plus. More variation on the other 2. Design wise those can be a bit lacking in areas depending on the actual model.

However China do make some decent lathes as do TOS, or did but they aren't the sort of thing that model engineers generally buy and the price and these days size will reflect that.

Schaublin - the only certainty about those is that even worn ones that don't deserve the name any more still fetch high prices. This is true of other mainstream makes as well, they are just cheaper in comparison, Hardinge too. All of them really.

There is one used lathe that I feel can be found in very good even perfect condition if some one takes their time looking. The Myford Speed 10 or even the later ML10 with the same bearings. Like many others they just use a pair of taper rollers for the headstock bearings which will put a limit on the finish that can be achieved reliably. To do better things like DSG's are needed - if they still make this type. The only ones that definitely do is Schaublin as far as I am aware. Both makes are likely to see a considerable amount of work before they are likely to appear on the used market and in practice few people need the initial performance levels these machines have. There is a UK source of recond's schaublins but if done fully they are still rather expensive.

On the other hand a file and emery cloth etc can cure all sorts of ills. Some styles of lathe bed such as Myford 7's cause more problems as they wear. Modern prismatic beds are a lot better but a lot depends on them having an ideal width for the size of lathe.

Maybe I should add that my training gave me a totally unrealistic idea of what lathes can do but I do understand why.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 08/02/2016 13:45:58

John, I think you will find Emco don't do "just one size"

PGK, maybe you should look at a Cyclematic, at $20,000 not cheap but a third of what a Hardinge used to sell for

LOL Boxford one size Jason. Not sure that they do 2 centre distances now as the new style seems to have grown in length since it was introduced. There were 2.

The usual UK source of the others is here, millers too.

**LINK**

SwissTec wow now with a name like that they must be good ?????????????? Opti etc.

I can bench mount some of the earlier new style Boxfords. I've looked at a couple and found a brand new check on one. Couldn't run it, engaged screw cutting and a tiny bit of pressure on the saddle feed and it jumped out. Ex college and I'd guess lots of screw cutting by some who didn't bother looking at the screw cutting gauge so just kept trying to ram it in. Not sure so I gave it a miss. Otherwise it seemed perfect.

Making some assumptions about what the OP's friend might make I would probably head in this direction but would make sure that it did sound like gear head with ground and hardened gears should sound like. I'd hope that the accuracy report was met as well.

**LINK**

Excel did what I would call a butch colchester student some years ago but that style of lathe seems to have gone. I was told that the head was alignable on this particular model.

If he also wanted to do very small accurate work he could augment the warco with one of the modern watch makers lathes - at a cost. S&B will it seems make a pultra for him - even better as they are big for this style of lathe. Maybe others too.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 08/02/2016 15:37:45

Don't forget they also do the 280 and 330 ctr height machines which come in different bed lengths.

Protools will also get you Emco industrial size machines not just the hobby machines

I'm surprised no-one expressed interest in the Ceriani? A 3-phase Italian-made lathe for under £3,000 with Norton gearbox and slightly greater capacity than a Myford?

And you can visit the factory to it it being made, if you want an Italian holiday.

Neil

I'd missed that Jason. They may also still do them to toolroom spec but the costs rocker. For me the used ones of this range are a nightmare. They seem to be very modular and screw cutting and feed features can vary. I don't fancy loosing the ease of changing feed rates over a wide range on the old screw cutting gearboxes and I feel that some of the new models have gone a step too far.

On the rest at the hobby end I'm not keen on variable speed. They could improve my view on that subject by adding more belt settings and not just the usual 2.

The machines might bend in half though.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 08/02/2016 16:04:22

The training versions do lack a lot of features but you can also get them with bells and whistles, our Nick_G seems to manage OK with his.

Or use one belt and variable pullys my woodturning lathe has that system as do the Boxford VM30 mills and the same is hidden in the base of Hardinge lathes too.

I'l stick with my Warco as it does all I ask of it

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I have a variation of one of those (STS 10-20). They all come under the X10 series banner with many of the parts across the range being interchangeable. **LINK** A couple of them are still made (at a price) I was lucky and found mine at a very good price.

It's good, I like it. It does what it is supposed to do and it's capabilities are far better than I have to get the best from it.

I can totally understand why somebody would wish to buy new if monies allowed. - Although I bought 2nd hand and 'blind' from ebay for both my lathe and mill at low prices, I do realise I was lucky in the conditions of the machines that were delivered. ....... Some people do not wish to leave to luck and if they can afford not to why should they.? It's their money. Most of us however have economic restrictions.

I would say that best bang for buck for somebody that had money to chuck at this while being realistic would be a mint condition M300. - I saw one a few months ago that was in such as new condition and fully kitted. It was however £7K ish.

I know this thread is not about used English Vs new far east imports but there are several factors to be considered when tempted by a used bargain. i.e. how well kitted is it.? I for example got a bargain with my STS 10-20. But.! Separated from it over the years was the extra change gears (available but £100 ish each) I also desire the fixed and travelling steadies. These are rare and command big coins even when they are available.

Nick

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That depends on which way the wind is blowing and how damp the sawdust is inside my head that day.

The ratio of swarf and scrap bin contents being boosted to that of a happy Nick is variable.

Nick

Neil do you know of anyone who actually has one of these machines, I've never come across an owner. There are a lot of good model engineers in Italy but from what I have seen of their workshops none use this make. I did have a fiddle with the knobs of one at a show, although it felt quite nice it did seem overpriced to me and 100rpm is not slow enough for my liking. As I have said before how often do people screwcut? I make quiet a few engines large and small and may screwcut once or less on each one so can live without a gearbox and prefer change gears which allow me to select pitches that are not in the box with teh right gears.

Edited By JasonB on 08/02/2016 17:03:52

If you have money to burn and need a Schaublin lathe or a mill, type 13 say then the place to look is Switzerland. Most of what is shown comes fully equipped with collets and the mills with arbors and tooling.

Muller Machine is one place with a vast selection of lathes and mills and Aceiria drills etc. My feeling is if you want one then get a Truck and pay a visit and bring it back and say its for model engineering. I understand Schaublin has formed a new Company and list lathes and parts based in Bevilard.

There are a couple of sources of Schaublin in the UK

used and recon work. They often sell rather quickly

**LINK**

New

**LINK**

John

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I think that the attitude you have expressed about your warco lathe and say colchesters and in real terms many others is entirely correct Jason.

I don't mind changing gears for screw cutting. In some ways if odd pitches are needed it's the best arrangement. Feeds are another matter. The trouble with those is that finest doesn't mean best finish. It varies. I'd say I would be happy with 4 or 5 suitably spaced.

John

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I have seen "Rebuilt" Colchester student lathes when I was looking to replace the South Bend heavy ten I had for over 45 years. Other than paint to make them look nice I was not convinced any real work had been done, most things just had checked/working OK on the list. I would expect new lead screws and nuts, reground ways and a near new machine performance for the close to £10000 asking price. I ended up with a Taiwanese 14x40 lathe. For the money (it was a used machine) it is doing all I need. Design faults are present, a weak cross slide that I am going to remake with castings being done this week. Also the saddle does not get close enough to the head stock for face plate work without hanging the tool out a lot. But as said it does all I really ask of it.

They are sold by Pro Machine Tools - the same people who distribute Emco in the UK.

I think the minimum speed is 7 rpm and the 100-1800 is the headstock gearing/belt ratio range, which seems believable with inverter drive.

It would be very interesting if an owner can be found who would be willing to write up an OMAHL article!

Neil

No that refers to the belt version which is 7 speeds ranging from 100 to 1800. There is the vario (which I did not see) option that does have a lower speed range of 30 - 250 or 250-2500 but thats not a very good spread and you would constantly be having to change belts between high and low ratio.

They also only come with 3-jaw so need to figure in the cost of 4-jaw, faceplate and both steadies

It was Chesters that had them on their stand when I had a ply not Pro

Also not sure if its a proper gearbox, if you look at the front of the machine I, II, III & IV refer to gearwheels that need to be swapped and the lever on the front only gives a few variations

Edited By JasonB on 08/02/2016 20:08:25

Yep, some digging in the Ceriani website and all the David lathes have 7 speed 100-1800 via headstock belts, but teh 203 vario adds 1hp inverter drive.

Neil