Where to start?

Hi pgk. If you are not too far away, Chester UK have an open week from the 1st--5th December, would be a good chance to have a good look at all things Chinese as most of the items are very much the same wherever you buy from if you do decide to buy new, just minor changes and different colours. I have had a Chester UK lathe and mill for over three years now with no problems so far. Happy hunting.

Cheers Derek.

> A good second hand machine is better than a bad new one and a good new machine is better than a worn out old one.

as you say Neil, very wise. As wise as "90% of what you spend on advertising is wasted! only 10% is worth it - but you never know which is which."

Welcome to the hobby pgk, if I was setting up another workshop with a budget of £6K, I would buy the kit I have now, accumulated over many years of Model engineering.

Lathe, a 3Ph Colchester Bantam with as many accessories as you can get, Say £1,500.

Miller, a 3ph Bridgeport with variable speed head and horizontal spindle attachment, another £1,500, and a 1ph to 3ph Transwave converter to run them both, £500. 3ph machines are cheaper, and using a converter allows all original motors on both machines to be used, e.g. coolant and feed motors.

A Fobco bench drill, say £250, a circular cold saw or a bandsaw to cut up stock, another £250, a linisher and bench grinder, £150, a rotary table for the miller, £200, a couple of milling and drilling vices, £200, a set of used micrometers 0 to 6”, say £100, which comes to £4,650 or thereabouts.

This leaves £1,350 to buy a bench vice, a used surface plate, marking out equipment, other measuring equipment, drills, lathe tools and milling cutters and any other odds and ends. I would buy all good used equipment, and walking into any of the dealers with this sort of prospective order ought to result in a few goodies being thrown in.

If you are unsure then stick to a dealer and pay a bit more but have some where to go with any problems. If something good came up privately, you would need to take some advice on this perhaps. I think it is important to at least have some idea what you want to do, but the above kit is capable of building anything from a small Stuart Turner steam engine to a 5” gauge loco and almost everything for 6” scale traction engine.

I am afraid I do not buy into the “buy as big a lathe as possible as one can do small stuff on a big lathe but not big stuff on a small lathe school”, but if 95% of your work is small stuff, you will be making life harder for yourself for 95% of the time.

Most projects will involve many more “small” components than large ones, and there is always a way to get a larger item dealt with by getting it pre-machined by the supplier or using a large lathe at a friend’s or a local ME club.

The Bridgeport miller is very versatile, and will allow you to mill and drill both small and large parts, with the appropriate work holding equipment.

Good luck with your project.

Chris Gunn

Thanks for all your comments so far. Much of that has been rattling around in my head for many months..and serves to confuse my decision making.

Like many of you i keep an eye on auction sites and ads that pop up here, lathes uk etc but practically a second user lathe and 3ph convessrion and a transport company has got to be the extra £1K with still concerns about my ability to asses and what comes with it and past experience with secondhand dealers (in my previous life) suggest they are more interested in selling you something than how good it really is and warranties are usually meaningless.

Without question it's time to go look at some machines hands on.

Whilst I do have my 40HP loader tractor which can drive to my shed door the reality is that it's a tight turn off the sloping driveway onto a stoned short length of track with a reverse camber bend on gentle slope so swinging 750kg from the loader would be scary. It'd be difficult to reverse a reasonable tail lift down there without digging out more trackway. Practically I think it'd be a case of using tractor as a lift off the ground onto rollers down a ply runway and using it as a braking system. My neighbours around here have all sorts of fancy lifting gear and telehandlers and always offer to help- but actually pinning them down to a day, let alone time, and having them rock up - well it's rural Wales and no-one is ever reliable about actual turn up and one can imagine stuff ending up under a tarp for a while if you depend on their assistance..

This bit you have to read:

I tried to bounce ideas and facts off my OH explaining all the above arguments etc. Her attitude was 'well how much is all this going to cost?'. I told her i was working on around a £6K budget overall and over time. Her answer?

"Well make it £8K and don't mess about 'cos i want my bath'

You lucky man

pjk- you have a tractor- have you got a rear loader or box, or can borrow one? Much easier and safer than swinging it off the loader.

I understood most lathes are going to be top heavy? Sitting it in a link box might have it;s own issues.. and the reality fact that I'm 2m tall old f*rt with some back issues..so twisting in the cab to keep a rearwards lookout isn't so good. Skating it on the ground off the loader arms and taking my time would be better and keep total CoG low. Perhaps a few tyres as bumpers?

Very nice DSG on ebay at the moment which would do agri engineering and someone might get for £2K , less than a decent Myford (its a strange old world). Not suggesting for one moment its what you want and its not exactly even at £2K a bargain although it is at a guess well under a twentieth of its new price. I found a similar line a while back for a friend at I think about £400 (in Peterhead of all places-probably repaired fishing boats) but it does illustrate just what's available with patience.

Regards

If you've got a front-end loader on that tractor, you could suspend a fairly heavy machine from the loader-arms with lorry tie-downs, and counterbalance with a load of stone in the rear box (if you haven't got a proper rear weight).

Toughy, you could pull a fast one and run 240v single ph to 220v 3ph then have the hassle of rewiring the 'needed, controls. That s assuming the motors dual voltage, mine isn't.

Otherwise plug and play from a 240v 1ph source now looking at £1300 for a 7.5kw inverter or same price for a noisy rotary convertor.

Lifting and manouvering is a one man job. There is a tapped hole in front of spindle that you can screw in an eye bolt £3. Just pick it up with tractor. I use a 5ft crow bar to nudge across concrete floor purely because no room for a 6ft.

Paid £850, sold Dickson toolpost £110 so cost £740. Trailer hire think was £36 and £3 for an eye bolt. Inverter £900 ex demo 3 1/2 years ago after a smaller 4kw £650 failing within 1 1/2hrs. Chucks and tooling £1000 should get you going, don't buy cheap chinese its wasted money.

Downsides, if clothing catches you wont stop the machine. Chucks can be heavy certainly the 8", 6" Elliott no problem, one hand job with 5 1/4" easy with the D1-4 fitting.

Serious positive is there are no change wheels to faff about with, something the Chinese haven't cottoned on to yet in near on 50 years. By that same with newer flat top Colchesters just dial in thread pitch whether metric or imperial think its up to 3.5mm pitch. I swore blind last Harrison scrapped 4 yrs ago I would never ever have another change wheel lathe again.

Why not have a small Chinese and something along the lines of a Harrison M300.

Jon, you contradicted your self !

"don't buy cheap Chinese its wasted money." then "Why not have a small Chinese and something along the lines of a Harrison M300" or is this lost in translation.

pgk

I hope your incoming power supply is up to the job as it is no good trying to run a lathe off an extension lead unless it's a small one.

Bob

<<If you've got a front-end loader on that tractor, you could suspend a fairly heavy machine from the loader-arms with lorry tie-downs, and counterbalance with a load of stone in the rear box (if you haven't got a proper rear weight).>>

It's got ballasted rear tyres and taking the bucket off and using the bucket bar directly saves a good 200Kg and if necessary the topper or plough on the back would be a nice levered counterweight I suppose. Or possibly if it was on a pallet make up some skids for that and just drag it with the quadbike. I'm happier about the shifting now I;ve pondered that more.

<<I hope your incoming power supply is up to the job as it is no good trying to run a lathe off an extension lead unless it's a small one.>>

When sparkie wired up the shed I think he said I was good for 60amps - it's done correctly with it's own consumer unit so extra circuits shoudn't be an issue if needed. I was anal about making sure no insurance company could bitch in the event of a disaster - my r/c helis aren't cheap either.

<<Chester UK have an open week from the 1st--5th December,>>

I popped along today.. it's less than an hour away.. and had a long chat...food for thought .

Any comments about their 'crusader delux'?

I think John (bogstandard2) has a crusader, perhaps he could give you some advice on that. I will have a word with him in case he does not see this post.

Cheers Derek.

John,

That's a very kind offer which I obviously accept. Apart from chores around the farm which are usually flexible I'm almost always free just say when and a postcode...

pgk

Chinese lathes are used around the world successfully and accurately.

Could someone please inform the xenophobic "Don't buy 'owt unless its fifty years old and made in Britain/USA and used by tweed wearing pipe smoking old farts, that they are becoming boring. And they are just plain wrong.

It would be more helpful if these people used their skills and experience to help us newcomers use the technology available in this world rather than looking back to the golden days that never existed.

Well Robert - I am old (ish) and somewhat "windy" these days (well OK very windy) but I can assure you that I haven't worn tweed or smoked a pipe for well over 50 years - when they were required "accessories" for touring pubs on a Sunday in my mates MG A.

And I have never, ever touched a Xylophone either!!

IanT

PS Especially not a Chinese one!

Edited By IanT on 19/11/2014 12:31:21

Nice one Robert ! I couldn't agree more.

Cheers Derek.

Hi pgk, as John said, you are very welcome to pop over anytime, but please send me a PM beforehand as I spend a fair bit of time at "men in sheds" these days but if I know I am due a visit I will make sure I am home.

Cheers Derek.

Robert, I agree with you when you state that its wrong to generalise on Chinese machinery, but is it not wrong also that you to generalise on 50 year old British/US stuff ?. To the OP, have a look at both, and buy what you fancy, and good luck.

A friend of mine has owned a Warco 13/27 lathe for years, excellent bit of kit, another one to consider.Cheers.

PS, nearly forgot, I own a lathe at least 53 years old, probably as good as anything else out there and Im not a boring old fart, although I do get the wind a bit, well a lot !!.  

Edited By Roger Williams 2 on 19/11/2014 21:03:08

Roger et al,

My post was intended as rather tongue-in-cheek and there was no intention to offend anyone. Actually I sent it in error as I realised that one can only read the words and do not get to hear the music. But being an aged geriatric , it was in the ether before I could stop it.

A huge amount of truly great work has been done on the older machines and I am in awe of the skills demonstrated by their users and I hope that those happy with their machinery continue to produce the goods.

We must remember that these machines are not the only road to salvation.

If we look around the model engineering community worldwide, not just in our local parish, we will see similar work standards being displayed on quote, "Cheap Chinese |Rubbish" , unquote.

There are many roads to Rome. We should enjoy the diversity and appreciate the variety of experiences.

After one really frustrating day at work when I was whingeing about the newer generation and their approach to life , my boss asked, " What would the world look like if we all thought and acted like you?"

It doesn't bear thinking about.