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Milling machine speed range
| Christopher Knight | 30/12/2011 18:53:30 |
| 9 forum posts | I wish to buy a small milling machine and am considering a Wabeco (on account of the hoped-for benefits of German Quality). I am a bit puzzled by their product offering of a high speed machine - at considerably more cost than the basic model. Can anyone explain why 7500rpm max of the higher speed machine should be useful versus the 3000rpm max of the lower speed machine? I would have guessed that most milling is done at substantially lower speeds than either of these, except when using very small cutter sizes. |
| Clive Hartland | 30/12/2011 19:40:39 |
 2929 forum posts 41 photos | Christopher, the high speed machines are offered with X,Y,Z drives and can be used for engraving.
They can also be used manually.
Engraving cutters need high revs to cut efficiently.
I would suggest asking them for a catalogue which explains the various set ups with these machines.
By the way, I suggest you buy one with a long table, the 1200 series is a very short table length.
Otherwise they seem to be very good machines and far better mechanicly and technically than some of the Oriental offerings.
I agree the prices are on the high side but they recently reduced the prices by about £239 on one of them.
Clive
|
| Christopher Knight | 31/12/2011 08:50:25 |
| 9 forum posts | Thanks for the response Clive. I take your point about the size of the table - the basic one is pretty short indeed. |
| Roderick Jenkins | 31/12/2011 21:08:50 |
 2376 forum posts 800 photos | Christopher, Tubal Cain in "Milling Operations in the Lathe" quotes industrial speeds in aluminium greater than 3000rpm for endmills of smaller than 5/16" and for slot drills smaller than 3/8" for HSS cutters. TC cutters, especially if coated, require even greater speeds. These sizes are not that small for model engineering. My mill has a top speed of 2000rpm and I have been looking at ways to increase this since feed rates can get painfully slow at low spindle speeds. cheers, Rod |
| Christopher Knight | 01/01/2012 07:45:21 |
| 9 forum posts | Rod, thanks for your reply. you make a good point and it is useful to hear your experience. Chris |
| David Littlewood | 01/01/2012 17:08:14 |
| 533 forum posts | Roderick,
You may or may not be into making tooling, but there is a kit for a speed increaser available here - but note it reverses the rotation, you will need to fit a reversing switch to your motor.
David |
| blowlamp | 01/01/2012 17:10:04 |
 1885 forum posts 111 photos | I discussed the topic of high speed spindles on another forum last week and in particular of one I've designed and put together. So to avoid repeating what I've already said, here's a link http://www.cambam.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2207.0 I hope it's of some use.
Martin. |
| Jon | 01/01/2012 19:01:01 |
| 1001 forum posts 49 photos | Dont just assume its German its quality, there are many things they produce of sub standard quality, those mills being one of them. Having wasted £4500 F1210E or 1220E? 10 yr ago best thing we did was get £1100 for it 8 yrs ago and put the dosh towards a cheap chinese Super Lux mill for price of the Lux. At least we could actually do something. Ok for wood and plastics, thats about its limitations unless you want to spend all day for what a diy rated chinese mill would do in 10 mins at 25% of the price. The main problem is the upright vertical column visually flexing with menial cuts in steel. Cost us an arm and leg in broken cutters £30 a pop due to the flex which in turn created severe bounce. The supplied grossly expensive ER collets didnt hold either. The general build is good but useless with that humongous quill bounce. |
| Roderick Jenkins | 01/01/2012 23:05:25 |
2376 forum posts 800 photos | Apologies to Christopher, I didn't mean to hijack the thread. Michael and David, I have actually had a go at making Dick Stephens speed increaser. So far I haven't been successful in reducing the run-out to acceptable levels. I've put it to one side for the moment, I'm going to try machining the input and output ends on their own bearings when I can work out how to do it. cheers, Rod |
| Christopher Knight | 02/01/2012 12:58:09 |
| 9 forum posts | Jon, That's a pretty damning view of the thing and the first negative review I have found online. I shall definitely have a look at it but hopefully get the importer to demo a hefty cut or three. I wonder if the machine has been upgraded since you had yours? Chris |
| blowlamp | 02/01/2012 13:06:53 |
1885 forum posts 111 photos | Posted by MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 02/01/2012 11:51:09:
R J :
...If you want to use cutters 1/4 " and smaller including engraving cutters it is far easier to make a new small free running cutter head for the purpose and just fit it to a tool shank and drive from an auxilliary small motor via round belt . If you put part of the spindle and top bearing inside the tool shank the whole thing can be very short and rigid indeed . Even if your tool shank is too small to do this the set up is still much more rigid and short than the Stephens in line speed increaser and ten times easier to make .
MW
Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 02/01/2012 11:59:06 Agreed Michael. In fact just like the one I made and posted a link to a few messages back
 Martin. |
| JasonB | 02/01/2012 13:33:33 |
 25215 forum posts 3105 photos 1 articles | Chris, the Lux is a far more substantial machine and I would expect it to take a much heavier cut. By Jon's use of "us" and "we" it sounds like it was being used commercially where time is money whereas most of us hobby machinists are happy to take a few more passes at a job.
A lot depends on what you want to make, you say you want to do stationary engines, well apart from the main few castings the majority of the work will be very small and the Wabeco will cope with ease and the bigger bits just take your time. If you were thinking of using it on say a 3" or 4" traction engine that would be another matter.
J |
| JasonB | 02/01/2012 14:22:03 |
25215 forum posts 3105 photos 1 articles | Well if work like this can be produced on a 1210E then I'd be happy to pile a few tins of beans on that shelf.
As the saying goes its not what you have got its what you can do with it.
J |
| Christopher Knight | 02/01/2012 17:43:14 |
| 9 forum posts | Jason, Thanks for your points and the link. I'd be happy to be able to do that standard of work with anything! Chris |
| Jon | 03/01/2012 00:36:57 |
| 1001 forum posts 49 photos | The dongled cnc 1210E was intentionally bought 2002 to rough out an iregular shape from 5mm thick flat, ground one side and ending 3.3mm thick finished after polishing, nothing trick allowing some hand finishing to size. Approx length 4"x 1 3/4 wide. Max mild steel removal inc a grind of one side 1.7mm with coolant! Was presentable on parts 1/2" longx 5/16" with sub 5mm cutters. Theres a certain hush hush tight lip which has happened several times with other so called top quality goods from that country, whats more they dont like being told same as Japan. By all means try the exact machine you intend to buy. I wouldnt want anyone to waste money. Get him to put a cut on mild steel 1mm+ with 12mm/1/2" cutter and make sure he dont take all day over the feed rate. Watch the upright column and head, listen for the cut or note change even if it only happens once. |
| Fowlers Fury | 04/01/2012 23:47:10 |
 446 forum posts 88 photos | I purchased a 1290E Wabeco mill a few years ago. It had the round vertical column and was atrocious for flexing under any sort of cutting. Consequently I contemplated what sort of 2nd hand price I might get for it in order to buy a Chinese job with decent vertical column with dovetail slides etc. However I then discovered I could buy such a column from Wabeco - expensive but I'd at least keep all the table clamps, DRO stuff etc I'd fitted. When this column was installed, it was quite a transformation and for a small mill, it gets very regular use now for the 5" loco under construction. However . . . . my opinion of the German electrics is another matter  After some use the motor began to 'stutter' and a strip down revealed that the pcb is exposed to the flying carbon particles abraded from the motor brushes and this caused tracking. The pcb needed thorough cleaning and then encasing in polythene sheet. In addition I fiited a pc case fan just in line with the motor brushes to extract the carbon particles & add some cooling. Shortly after this, the electrics started to play up again and this time the linear pot which controls the speed had failed. I purchaed a replacement from Maplins but this caused new problems. After more aggravation I found it necessary to use a log pot rather than a linear one and this is a continued annoyance when changing speed. (I'm no expert on electronics so don't understand about the linear/log potentiometer issue). A little later the plastic knob on the pot literally fell to bits, but a better replacement was easy. Another irritation is the X axis locking key for the table. If you happen to leave this in the down position it will shear off or bend when advancing the table in the Y direction. Yet despite the trials & tribulations, mechanically the mill is superb. Just comparing the feel of the X, Y & Z handwheels to those on Chinese mills at exhibitions shows it's a quality product IMHO. |
| Ady1 | 05/01/2012 00:14:30 |
 6137 forum posts 893 photos | My old lathe cant do no more than 500 rpm, but it is very stiff for milling work. I've found that "higher" speeds often create too much heat and can damage the cutter when a lot of work is being done. Presumably very high speeds would do best with a coolant system. For things like aluminium using the backgear has worked best for me. The unit can munch an entire t-slot through an aluminium plate in a single pass because using a slower speed like 50 rpm does not create too much heat, and the stiffness/torque can do the work. There certainly seems to be a trend towards "high speed" equipment but it should be borne in mind that these speeds can generate an amazing amount of heat, especially if its a big job. I have also found that 6-8mm max is the best size for my hobby machine when lots of work needs doing, strength and torque. A two flute cutter is best if you only have a bog standard grinding wheel. The closer to the centreline the cutter is...the higher the torque. A t-slot cutter rapidly loses torque because of it's profile, the teeth are a very long way away from the very high torque zone along the centreline   Edited By Ady1 on 05/01/2012 00:24:21 |
| JasonB | 05/01/2012 08:12:46 |
25215 forum posts 3105 photos 1 articles | Ady, I'd said the same thing to Chris via PM, I would be more interested in the lower speed than the top end particularly when doing large intermittant cuts like the curve under a chimney saddle.
And as you say high speeds on alloy need something to stop the metal welding to the tool and to clear the swarf.
J |
| Ady1 | 05/01/2012 09:07:09 |
6137 forum posts 893 photos | This is an old unimat milling table project of mine. A first attempt by an amateur at cutting t-slots straight through a solid 12.5mm aluminium plate The upper and lower t-slots are rough because they were done at higher speeds and had heat issues, vibration marks, sticky swarf and needed lubricating. Non stop hassle which needed constant care and attention. The lower slot was done on a unimat...lol, silly me, took about 3 days. the upper was on the Drummond and was more controlled but still had the usual high speed issues which plague working with aluminium. So I employed the family braincell and tried a different approach The t-slot right through the middle of the plate on the left hand side was a complete doddle, done in a single pass with no lubrication on the backgear, and the finish was luvvly.  At amateur levels I find that stiffness and torque are far more user friendly, especially for longer jobs if the machine is doing a lot of work and heat becomes a major factor. Edited By Ady1 on 05/01/2012 09:38:42 |
| Ady1 | 05/01/2012 10:04:49 |
6137 forum posts 893 photos | Here's a more detailed photo, showing the incredible skills of an amateur. I stopped at that point, having finally sussed the major hurdle of overcoming those high speed heat problems Major heat issues on the right with the "high speed" unimat (1000rpm? and oh boy was that a nightmare job) Moderate heat issues on the left with the drummond on "high speed"(4-500rpm) Both attempts also needed lots of messy lubrication and there was a lot of stop/start procedures when the heat buildup got too high, jammed cutter issues etc. Zero heat problems in the middle with the backgear and no messy lubrication required, only some milling marks(50 rpm), and the entire job was all done in a single easy peasy pass. Sussed at last. phew!  Edited By Ady1 on 05/01/2012 10:15:34 Edited By Ady1 on 05/01/2012 10:31:40 |
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All Forum Topics > Beginners questions > Milling machine speed range