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Shaper Tools

Advice required for shaper tools

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martyn sutcliffe	02/05/2010 23:06:10
2 forum posts	I have recently purchased a small secondhand hand shaper and have been trying to get to grips with it's use. I have no experience with such a machine, and I quess that those that do are few on the ground; the milling machine long having taken it's place in the workshop. I am having issues with the tool digging in and ripping rather than cutting on all but the shallowest cuts. The machine has some rigidity issues which I am in the process of rectifying, 5 thou measurable deflection between the bed and clapper. under load. However it may also be a question of tooling. currently the tool is being drawn into the work (similar issue to that on a lathe when parting). As supplied it came with a slightly joggled tool placing the cutting edge about 20mm in-front of the clapper box pivot. My older texts suggest that the cutting edge should only just lead the pivot, however all photos I have seen show straight tools. To my questions: Was there a change in normal practice with regard to the use of tools that put the cutting tools in line with the pivot? Does anyone know where I can procure joggled tools(1/2")? Any other advice on how to rectify the problem of digging in most welcome. Thanks Martyn
Terryd	03/05/2010 00:34:58
1946 forum posts 179 photos	This will not be of much help with your problem, but I used these machines a lot during my time as an apprentice (much too long ago to admit to) and must say that it was one of my favourites to use. The simplicity and versatility of the shaper in many ways makes it superior even to the milling machine. It is capable of cutting profiled shapes as well as flat surfaces and can create complex shapes such as tee slots with very simple tooling. No slot drills or end mills etc, no collet systems and dozens of adaptors, just simple tools which could be formed and sharpened on an offhand grinder in seconds. All you really need is a lump of tool steel and a means of hardening it. (although brazed tungsten tips were quite common even then). How I envy you having such a machine. I also find the repetitive action almost meditational. In fact I think I'll go and look out for one asap As I recall we used mostly straight tooling, not joggled. I don't think that the geometry of the hinge centre on the clapper box has much influence as the clapper box should be supported by the face of the toolpost and ram during the cutting stroke and as long as there is no wear or play on the mechanism of the hinge it should be ok. It is also important that the front of the table be supported, but mostly this is for accuracy as if there was play the workpiece would tend to be thrust downwards away from the tool hence little chance of digging in. I have used several of these machines of various size, from quite small to seriously large ones and never came across the problem you are describing. 1/2" square tooling seems quite small to me and I seem to recall that the smallest we used was around 3/4". I feel that you problem is one of general wear and you need to run the machine as slowly as possible, and carefully observe what is happening when the machine is operating. Check the gib strips of the ram for play and adjust, as you should with all the other adjustments such as the vertical slideways etc. I think it will be a process of trial and error, but it will be worth it! As an aside, we used to have a couple of planing machines which operated on a similar principle to the shaper but had tables of 24 foot long by 6 foot wide. On these machines it was the table which moved with workpiece mounted under a large clapper type mechanism which held the tool, often 2" section and larger. They were something to watch, believe me. Best of luck, sorry not to have been much help but let us know how you get on and report regularly. Try filming the machine in detail when cutting and sticking the video on YouTube and perhaps we could have a look see and advise, just a thought Best regards Terry Edited By Terryd on 03/05/2010 00:39:01
Dunc	03/05/2010 03:00:25
139 forum posts	As a non-owner (but with an interest to become one) I have located a couple of sites that might have answers buried within: Yahoo has a Shaper Group http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/ http://neme-s.org/ Scroll down the page and find a variety of shaper oriented references.
mick	03/05/2010 17:54:54
421 forum posts 49 photos	Hi Martyn By joggled, I assume these might be what were known as swan neck tools. I too worked a shaper in my early days and had a couple of 3 ton models back in the ninties, which I used for heavy roughing. Like working on a lathe, if there is too much over hang, then the tool will tend to dig in. The swan neck tools give a certain amount of spring, which will counteract the tendency to dig in. But too deep a cut will make any tool dig in. Small shapers are the same as small milling machines, they just aren't designed for heavy work. Rule of thumb, roughing tools need to be "V" form, so they can work from both sides of the job. For finishing use a flat faced tool (simular to a grooving tool) but slightly angle the flate cutting face against the job, to produce a shearing action, the gap only needs to be around 0.005 thou, this will give you a perfectly flat surface and with practice can produce a finish to rivial surface grinding. I wish I had the space for a small shaper, as they were the machine of choice, before the advent of the universal turret mill. Regards. Mick
MichaelR	03/05/2010 19:04:19
528 forum posts 79 photos	Martyn, Have look on youtube you will see shapers in use which may help you. See here
dcosta	04/05/2010 00:56:58
496 forum posts 207 photos	Hello Martyn. I'm building a modified version of the Gingery's shaper machine. And, instead of using cast aluminum, I will use 5083 aluminum plate. You can see some pictures of the building process in the albums section. I have yet to upload a new batch of pictures and I will do it in a few days from now. You can also see one such shaper working, made by Mr Rick Sparber - Rick.Sparber.org), in the Youtube address http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZdbNWoySo0 Best regards Dias Costa
Gone Away	04/05/2010 02:00:16
829 forum posts 1 photos	Camden (in the UK) and Lindsay's (North America) have some inexpensive reprints of shaper books/manuals that might be worth checking out..
Cornish Jack	11/05/2010 22:03:15
1228 forum posts 172 photos	May I jump aboard this thread with a repeat of a previous request for information on the Perfecto shaper, please? Last time I got lots of help with the second part of my query but nothing on the shaper. I'm fairly certain that I have seen at least one item on this particular model somewhere but cannot find it again. Thanks in advance, Rgds
martyn sutcliffe	11/06/2010 14:38:29
2 forum posts	Thanks to all who have replied. Many of the links have provided usefull information. It appears the use of Jogged or Swan Necked tool was for Earlier machines or much heavier work. Just need to get some time to solve the rigidity issues on the mahine and I think I should be sorted. At some time soon I will put up some pictures as I have been unable to identiffy the manufacturer and would like to replace the missing parts for the automatic table feed. Thanks to all Martyn
John Olsen	04/07/2010 10:42:18
1294 forum posts 108 photos 1 articles	Hi Martyn, The swan necked tool dates back to the days when such tools were also common on lathes. They should not generally be necessary. However, there is a case for keeping the cutting edge as far back as possible relative to the clapper box. One type of tool holder sold for the purpose has a round hole at the end. A roundheaded bolt with a slot across it goes through the hole, with a nut on the front, eg where you stand with the machine hurling hot chips at you So the tool is behind the main bar of the toolholder. Any flex thus tends to take the tool out of the job. If the tool is in front of the holder, the opposite would apply. I have actually managed to buy a couple of such holders, one that is too big for any of my machines and one that I use reasonably often. They can be made, and a good starting point for a smaller shaper (6 to 10 inches) is to take a steel crank from a bicycle. Make a bolt with a slot in it for the tool and you are away. These holders do need a good long piece of high speed steel, you can't use up those little left over bits. Standard lathe tool holders tend to have too much rake and also put the tool too far forward. Still, the ones that came with my 10 inch Alba have worked OK. You tend not to want very much rake on a shaper. As you have decided, rigidity is all important. Apart from the clapper box area, check the ram itself for wear. I beleive there there is some information on the Perfecto in the old book. (MAP? Argus ?Nexus? I can't remember which it was) If my copy comes to light I will try to post more details on it. regards John
John Olsen	04/07/2010 22:55:35
1294 forum posts 108 photos 1 articles	Hi Again, OK, for Cornish Jack, the book I referred to is : "The Shaping Machine" by Ian Bradley, pulblished 1973 by Model and Allied Publications ISBN 0852423233 It may have been reprinted by one of their successors. Anyway, that book is a good run down on shapers in general, and has information on most of the more common British shapers. There is not a great deal on information on the Perfecto, but there is some. Somebody somewhere must have a copy of a Perfecto manual, assuming such a thing ever existed. Sometimes there was none, it was assumed that if you bought such a machine you knew what to do with it. Bradley also shows the bicycle crank tool holder referred to above. For hand shapers sharp tooling is of great importance. The acid test is to see if you can take a scraping off your thumbnail with the edge. Not using the shaper, just take the sharpened tool in one hand and see if you can take a scraping off the surface of a thumbnail. If you cannot, the tool is blunt, no matter how good it looks. regards John
James B	05/07/2010 13:04:23
101 forum posts 14 photos	Hi Martin, Bear with it - some time ago I come by a 10" Elliott shaper - I was expecting it to require some work, but on inspection had hardley any wear at all - after a fresh coat of paint now sits proudly in my workshop. After getting to know the machine, it is my favourite to use - excellent results, and cheap to run, cutter-wise! I picked up some 20mm square HSS bits from an exhibition, which fit nicely in the toolpost. I shaped various cutting forms direct on these bits, each with a particular application, which cut fine with no digging in. The best source I have found was the Ian Bradley book mentioned above - 'The Shaping Machine', which covers the machine from installation, use, tools, etc. I believe this is long since out of print, but I have the whole book in PDF format - if you send me your email address, I can email you a copy for some bedtime reading! (and anyone else who would like a copy). James.
_Paul_	05/07/2010 19:10:13
543 forum posts 31 photos	I have an 8" Boxford (and a Powered Adept) the Boxford produced an awful cut as purchased until nearly all play was adjusted from the machines gibs it now produces beautiful work and is quite theraputic to use Your digging in symptoms are indicative of play somewhere in the machine so at the risk of stating the obvious... Try to remove as much play as possible from the machines gibs Make sure the work is solidly mounted/clamped If like the Boxford the table has a support leg make sure it is in firm contact Good sharp tooling with around a 3 degree heel clearance see the difference Couple of Good videos from Rudy Kouhoupt first is a primer on the Shaper (demonstrated on a 1900's Temple) and the second has six projects in it neither are particularly cheap but IMHO well worth the money for a beginner. Couple of other good books are: Shapers by Emanuelle Stieri Shaper Job Operations by J.W.Barrit Both from Lindsay Publications Regards Paul
John Olsen	06/07/2010 07:37:48
1294 forum posts 108 photos 1 articles	One trick that can help with a machine where the table slide is a bit "tired". Set things up for the height you want, set the front leg down and lock it, then wind the handle as if to lower the table. Of course the leg prevent you, but it will bring the back of hte table down as far as possible and make sure that the leg is in good contact. While still pushing down, lock the table height screws. (There will normally be some way of clamping the table height .) Incidently if a shaper does not have a support leg it would be a really good idea to give it one, where possible. Some of the hand shapers of course cannot have one fitted. James, I would love that PDF...I have a paper one but the PDF would be nice to have too. You can get me at: mjolnir at paradise dot net dot nz. regards John
x	06/07/2010 22:13:25
1 forum posts	Anyone needing basic bare bone shaper information will find a scan of a fabulous war time US instruction manual here: http://www.neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/Shaper%20Work/ This contains 325 pages of nothing but shapers, including construction, maintenance and use. Well worth looking at and it's free!
Sam Stones	07/07/2010 04:17:54
922 forum posts 332 photos	Hi Martyn, I’m not sure if the following is relevant to your situation other than in terms of the slideways clearance. However, while serving my time in the toolroom in the 50's, we had a 24" shaper mostly being used by a very elderly gentleman. The machine (I can’t remember the make, but it was pretty old) had a Whitworth quick-return linkage, as opposed to a hydraulic ram drive. Changing speed and clutch operation was via large joy-sticks emerging from the side of the machine. Occasionally, the shaper became available for use by others. None of these people, including myself had little if any problem cutting large slabs of (mostly) nickel chrome steel. Incidentally, I did have to stand on a box to reach the top slide handle. Anyway, the machine had one problem when set for a finishing cut. There was a few thou wear in the main (ram) slide. In use, this was taken up by a film of oil, which meant that the last (finishing) cut had to be continuous, and the machine had to be left to run across any workpiece until the cut was complete. If, for any reason, the machine stopped mid-traverse and was left for a period of time, the next stroke would be deeper by the amount of oil missing from under the slide. The usual practice was to leave the finishing cut either until after lunch or to take a late lunch break. If you look at the basic forces involving the ram, and depending upon the style of cutter already discussed previously, these forces would tend to cause the front to dip and the rear to lift. Could this relate to your problem? In closing, I’m reminded of one unfortunate chap who was using this same shaper to put a 15 deg bevel across the edges of a steel blank. Rather than tilt the work-piece, he chose to set the top slide over by 75 deg and then hand feed across and down the slope. Sadly for him having carried out this setup, and with the machine on bottom speed, he inched the ram back again to start his first cut. What he didn’t realise was that the overhang of the top slide was perfectly in line with the body of the machine. There was a slight noise as the `T’ bolts ripped away the `T’ slots on the head of the ram. The whole top-slide weighing a good 50kg dropped onto the work-piece with a thud, leaving the poor guy scratching his head. Good luck. Sam

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