Advice on choosing a tool cutter/grinder

Evening All, I'm hoping for some guidance and advice here. I'm looking at buying a universal tool cutter grinder and narrowed the selection to two candidates. Please let me have your thoughts on each option and your preferences - I'd be particularly interested in the reasons as well. My two candidates are a Deckel clone such as the Warco model currently offered or alternatively a Clarkson Mark II.

I hear that the Warco machine is decent but that the accessories are a bit rubbish. I hear good things about the Clarkson but that accessories can be hard to find.

Both come out at roughly the same price so that's not really a consideration. Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers,

Jason

Edited By Jason Copland on 12/09/2023 20:14:35

Depends what you are expecting to grind with them.

Out of the two would consider the Clarkeson to be most useful, but you need all the accessories to exploit its capabilities.

Had a couple of Chinese Deckel clones, complete with supplied accessories and sold both in short order, found them to be pretty useless for my needs. Think the original Deckel was designed for sharpening engraver points.

Thanks Alan. I believe you are correct in that it's my understanding the Deckel was indeed originally designed to grind engraver points - I think that's where the name "D Bit Grinder" comes from - one of the things I will need to grind is points for a Taylor Hobson model D I recently bought. In addition to that I think such a machine could take the place of my trusty pedestal grinder for HSS lathe tools and perhaps be used for milling cutters too. I've seen Stefan Gotteswinter's video on the Deckel clones but I'm still not sure. Personally I'm more drawn to the Clarkson but I think the accessories could be a problem, most of the ads I've seen for these machines seem to be a bit light on the accessories. Thanks again

Edited By Jason Copland on 12/09/2023 21:17:18

As Alan says the Deckel was an engraver cutter grinder and the clones have had attachments made for them to attempt milling cutter grinding, my view on these machines is that you would be better off with a bench grinder and Harold Halls book of grinder accessories. Regarding Clarkson grinders you could easily make enough tooling to get you started, things like drill point grinding attachment and radius attachment are available, price may be a problem though, I am fortunate in having a fully equipped Clarkson, and after 25 years of ownership the radius attachment has only been used half a dozen times, mainly for sharpening ball nosed cutters. Have you considered a second hand Quorn, ok the build quality could be variable depending on the skill of the original builder but it should be capable of doing all that a Clarkson can and if it’s missing some attachment they can easily be made.

I've got an original Deckel S0 and it's usefulness is very narrowly focused. Yes you could grind the end lips of slot drills etc on it and yes it can be used for shrpening twist bits (with the drill sharpening attachment) but predominently it's used for grinding single lip/engraving cutters. Mine I got for grinding broken 6mm carbide end mills into form tools for use on my lathe.

I also have a Mk1 Clarkson which is far more versatile but the accessories are expensive. They are not difficult to make though.

Edited By Pete Rimmer on 12/09/2023 21:45:30

Thanks Baz - good to have your view on the radius attachment and happy to learn that I could make the tooling; I'm looking into Quorn as well.

Thanks Pete, that's the issue I was concerned about, getting a machine that's good at only one particular task where the Clarkson is more versatile and potentially far more useful long term.

(Do you make the broken carbide end mills yourself ? I acquired that skill as well)

EDIT: I've been looking at a listing for a MKII, I noticed it seems to have a MKI universal head rather than the MKII. IS this something I should be concerned about? According to Tony's Lathes site, the MKII head is described as "more robust" - am I to infer that the MKI head is inferior?

Edited By Jason Copland on 12/09/2023 22:21:21

In a practical world I doubt if there is any significant difference in stiffness between the older and later style universal heads. The older version does have greater inherent overhang which to my eyes suggests setting up the side and face cutters used on horizontal miles might be easier.

Mine is an early(ish) MK1 with the typical inadequate guarding and appropriate heads. They all seem well up to the job.

If making your own I imagine producing something along the lines of the later holder bracket and attaching a 5C collet block to do the actual holding would be a quick way of going about things and not silly expensive. It may be even be possible to find a cheap angle bracket of suitable size to need little modification to make a functional holder bracket. More expensive but faster.

The Clarkson drill sharpener is a superb device, about a minute take a drill from blunt to super sharp, but regrettably not that common.

Perfectly adequate import 6 jaw chucks can be found at affordable prices so it's a pity that no one has reverse engineered the geometry for home build. Several years back I bought a larger 6 jaw intending to make a scaled up version of my standard one going from 5/8" to 1 1/2" to do my bigger MT drills. Another job stuck in the round-to-it file.

Clive

CLARKSON ! The MK 2 is a refined MK 1 - but The late MK1 had Mk2 accesories ! If it has the universal head (complete), 2 centres and both tooth rests thats a good start. The most obvious difference is the mk 2 has a second speed of 6000rpm - will you need this ? The MK2 base is VERY HEAVY ! If 3ph they will run on a transwave, just plug it in ! BUT the drill grinder, radius grinder and air bearing flute grinder are VERY EXPENSIVE when they come up for sale. A MK2 universal head ? The Mk2 Grinder head/ spindle has different bearings. I may be biased but I would go for the Clarkson, BUT see how worn it is, £300 - £400 with the basic bits. Noel.

Greetings Jason, I think you would be pleased with a Quorn, it will do all I asked it to do. Remember it was designed for Model Engineers.

Regards

Brian B

I notice that a "Cuttermaster cutter grinder" has just appeared in the "For Sale" ads on this site. Would this be of any interest to you?

Might be worth a look.

Neil

Brian

Excellent though a well made and completed Quorn is making one is known to be a major project in itself.

Personally I'm a bit unconvinced by the overall Quorn machine concept in itself. It's always seemed to be a bit too clever by half for most folks needs. Being able to do the clever and sophisticated stuff that many may well never need somewhat compromises doing more routine things. It is really compact tho' which is considerable virtue for folk with smaller workshops.

Effective though Howard Halls accessories for a bench grinder are they are ultimately rather limiting in what can be done. The amount of work needed to make everything does rather add up too.

Now that adequate import XY tables can be gotten at affordable prices I do wonder if a home build Clarkson clone using the same seesaw on a column layout, thick wall tube should be fine, is a practical proposition. Obviously all the Clarkson accessories could simply be copied with appropriate modifications to suit affordable commercially available components.

That Cuttermaster is interesting but what do you do to set-up for drill sharpening. Drills are mostly what my Clarkson gets used for so quick and easy is important to me.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 13/09/2023 09:57:04

I have a well equipped mk 1 Clarkson,they are good machines,the company where I was apprenticed used one to cover all the cutter sharpening for the small factory,as I was familiar with this machine it was an obvious choice and it has done its job ok.

The 1st question, what do I intend to make or resharpen?

2nd, Which machine is the easiest to use for what I want to make?

For myself, the Deckel type will make the form cutters etc for what I need, like internal or external special threading tools, or single point D bit type cutters of many geometries etc.

The little Clarkson's are a very capable machine and there is a huge range of accessories .It then becomes a learning curve all be it a very satisfying one, learning to make various cutters or regrinding them etc. Diamond or cbn wheels allows many things to be done as well in carbide or HSS or stellite etc

If you have the room etc for the Clarkson, I would recommend the Clarkson, but that's because I have used one years ago and enjoyed making things on it that were not available at the time.

If space is a problem, and you only need single point cutters or basic geometry single lip cutters, etc then I would recommend going the Deckel clone route. I do like the D bit grinders alot, and it is really nice if you can have both machines.

Many thanks to all for your contributions. In the meantime I've decided not to jump and buy something without first giving the matter proper consideration (I had my eye on a Clarkson MK2 but I'm not going to rush into it)

I'll give the matter a few more coats of thinking about it and then decide.

Thanks again, much appreciated

The only thing I would advise when buying a Clarkson is look it over carful for wear as the main slide has scant protection from grinding grit and the iron it's cast from is soft. If its been used in unsympathetic hands then the wear can be significant.

Have you looked at RDG tools recently? I am feeling tempted by their universal cutter grinder because of the price tag and the big pile of accessories it comes with.

This is not a recommendation, I am no expert on this stuff, I am actually just fishing for clues myself

Hello Robin, yes I did see that, it looks very like the one available from Warco and I suspect they originate in the same Chinese factory. Although they both come well equipped with attachments from what I've gleaned from reading and watching other peoples' reviews the attachments aren't up to much but as a basic D bit style machine they are very good.

That's good advice, thanks Pete