If I can find the extra funds would they be welt spent ?

Hi all,

If this question that has been asked a million times before, please feel free to point me to the relevant posts/thread, with abuse as necessary. But.....

I thought I would ask these questions in the hope that I may be able to make an informed decision having sifted through any answers, albeit subjective and contradictory I assume, as the questions I guess have very subjective and variable answers.

I am looking for a reasonable M300 or Student Lathe...Now I know everyones idea of reasonable will be different....so if I try and explain what I mean here.

From a few months of looking it would appear there are a lot of lathes for sale from dealers and online that appear grubby, at least to look at, some look cosmetically touched up, often poorly, some looked clapped out. I know pictures provide a very small insight into a lathes past but you have to start your judgements somewhere, before getting into the car as they are all over the country.

I have found a few lathes M300 that are around 10 ish years old and they appear to be going for around the 5 - 6K + the dreaded VAT obviously from dealers. They look clean and tidy but.....

Would it be a safer bet purchasing a 10 year old machine, that looks at least on initial inspection of photos to be clean and tidy for that kind of money, which I presume will be in reasonably good condition, or an earlier model for around 4K that looks clean, cosmetically used, but perhaps functional? WhenI say function I assume some wear and tear but usable for general machining to a reasonable level of accuracy

I know I maybe asking how long is a piece of string with so many variables but I guess what I am trying to ask is that even if a machine has had 10 years of heavy use the likelihood is that it may be in better condition that a nice looking machine, that may even appear cosmetically superior in photos of around 20 - 30 years old or more?

I guess I am trying to ask in people opinions, how long are the bedways expected to last, spindle bearings, gears etc

Its difficult to decide if 1K 2K 4K or 7K is going to get a reasonable usable machine. More money as we all know docent necessarily equal a better device. Whilst I don't have a bottomless pit I would rather spend a little extra if it results in a better machine......but I feel there is no easy answer?

Whilst I am getting familiar and reasonably competent "in my opinion" with my Mill I have never used a lathe, so should I just get a small/medium Warco or the likes to get me going...my thoughts here are that I will just be throwing money away as I will get fed up with it, outgrow it quickly and wish I had bought my initial choice.

Any thoughts ?

Gary

If I was contemplating spending that much I would never rely on photos for a second hand lathe. Best to inspect in person and if your lathe experience is zero, try and take someone with you who knows lathes and will know what to look for wear wise. Also, you will give yourself a better chance of picking up a good second hand machine if you can broaden your search criteria re: make and model.

Good luck in your search.

Rik

The usual advice is to buy the biggest machine that funds and space allow although it depends on the size of items you are likely to make.

A friend of mine insists that you can make small parts on a big lathe but not big parts on a small one.

I would go for an English or US make that is well known such as Colchester, Harrison, Brown and Sharp, Southbend etc so that information and spares are available.

I would avoid any dealer that charges VAT and ideally go for a privately owned, model engineer owned one.

Another important consideration is, what is with the lathe such as chucks, collets, taper turning attachment (if necessary) digital readout unit, lathe tools etc.

Think also about power supply and access.

If you are new to lathes it would pay to take someone with more experience with you when you go to view.

All the best with your search and please let us know the outcome.

Best of luck with it.

Brian

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 09/11/2017 17:01:49

Gary

My holy grail is a 40" bed M300, it perhaps says something if I say I have been looking for one at a sane price for about a year now, and I haven't succeeded. Most of what I see advertised appears to be hammered.

Condition always should stand head and shoulders over any other criteria.

History is very relevant - if it is 30 years old but has had a gentle life in a prototyping environment, or school where it doesn't get used much, or home workshop background, this will always be preferable to a ten year old machine that has been used in a time pressured production environment and had the hell bashed out of it.

Your pricing is about right - the only recent M300 I have seen that might fit my bill was £5,900 + vat.

I echo Rik's comments above, I would say personal inspection is vital.

Whilst looking for an M300, I bought a Boxford 280.

Allegedly designed by the same person as the M300, the X10 series Boxford's (10.20, 10.30, 280, 330 etc) are very much like a cloned 90% copy of an M250/M300 - virtually identical in design and capability, just a bit lighter built.

Back in June, a very lightly used Boxford 330 came up (ex school, as most of the X10's are/were sold into education), I bought it via the man that installed it in the school in the first place, and serviced it every year, and I traded up to this.

I got lucky with this 330 - it genuinely is very lightly used, and I paid just £2,200 for it (a picture is in my album) - compare this to the £7,000 + I would have to pay for a M300 in similar condition.

No better X10 has come up in a year, and I just happened to be in the right place in the right time.

The X10's are oddly unpopular, for no good reason. This makes it a buyers market. Several of us on here have got them, and they are very capable lathes. There are several on eBay at £2,500 to £2,950, and they have been there since God was a boy, and will never sell at those prices.

If you are hankering for an M300, look seriously at the Boxford X10 series.  I would say that now I have my current Boxford 330, I have given up the search for an M300.  I would have to pay £5,000 more, for something that probably wouldn't be any better for my needs.

I hope this helps.

Edited to add a photo of the 330:

Edited By David Standing 1 on 09/11/2017 17:22:59

While you are looking I would always check out your potential purchase on lathes.co.uk. It has masses of detail about model variants, tips about problems and weak spots etc.

Buying a used lathe, is much akin to buying a used car, and about as risky. Cosmetics can be deceiving.

Small industrial sized machines like students and M300's are about the hardest to buy sucessfully, as most either get a hard life in an industrial setting with little or no maintenance and tend to be well worn out, or are from training establishments where legions of Spotty Herberts have been let loose on them with the inevitable consequences.

I wouldn't lay out any serious money without having a good look and feel close up, and especially in the case of an M300 hearing it run......iv'e come across a few Harrison M's that looked ok but sounded awful. IMHO Spindle bearing replacement on a 600 group lathe is not financially viable for a hobbyist, infact any spare parts/ bearings etc from them are diabolically expensive.

Colchester's if they have been run with flood coolant and not well maintained tend to end up with rusty apron gearboxes full of old coolant.

Unless you are very lucky, expect to find a good bit of backlash especially on the cross slide handwheel, however this can be sorted without too much expense.

I always look at the accessories when buying a lathe, things like steadies are hard to come by and expensive secondhand. The headstock MT adaptor is often missing in action from Colchesters and Harrison's and can be a pig to find secondhand for reasonable money.

At the kind of money you are talking about i would want a full complement of chucks and accessories, a quick change toolpost with holders and ideally a DRO.

My advice would be to go see a few before parting with your cash. Unfortunately going back to the car analogy, you won't truly know what you've bought until you've lived with it for a while.

I bought my Student 1800 at auction sight unseen, but it was at the right money and i knew i was unlikely to lose on it. It came out of a maintenance environment and looked dreadful, however it cleaned up ok and although is a little worn, it does everything i need ok, All chucks and accessories were present including a rear qctp which was a bonus. Sorry if all this comes across a bit negative, but you really do need to tread carefully, especially if your new to the game.

David,

Thank you for your reply. Yes I will inspect any lathe before purchasing, and will take along someone with far more knowledge and experience than me, I am just trying to get some ideas before I drive all over the country!

I had never considered the Boxford, but appreciate your comments and nice pic and will consider them as an option, your comments ref the Harrison are spot on, I don't want to pay excessive money just for a name, but at at the same time there is lots of rubbish out there.

Good food for thought. I appreciate your time and reply and I must say that the pic you posted reflects the condition of machine "in photo" I would consider getting into my car for to inspect in person . You understand where I am coming from Again many thanks Gary.

Hi Alan,

Sorry I was trying to use some of your comments.. Constructive advise and understood. Its a minefield, and whilst I want to get a clean usable machine like everybody I suppose I don't want to pay excessive money if I can avoid it.

I wouldn't contemplate a more expensive machine without a DRO and as for the tools extras etc well understood a point made by many; and good advise. Thank you for your time and nice to see your workshop pic. Looking good...

Gary

Forgot to mention in my post, and to echo Davids 'Holy Grail' comment. If you have the space, go for a long bed version, my Student is a short bed, and although i rarely turn any long parts, it still feels a bit 'cramped' in use.

Sadly in my case, i couldn't fit anything longer in the space available, infact iv'e got a hole drilled in the wall for the tailstock handle to go into

Gary

You're welcome.

You will probably find someone off here local to you that would be prepared to go with you to look, I would. Where are you?

I actually bought my 330 blind, off eBay. It was, as is always the case, not local but a 450 mile round trip away, in Liverpool.

But, that purchase was on the basis of detailed photos and a conversation with the vendor, and the hindsight of it being the 9th lathe I have owned, I wouldn't recommend that approach to a first time secondhand lathe buyer.

Five of those previous lathes have been Myford Super 7's. I don't consider them very good value for money, the better ones are nearly always £2k +.

Something I did also buy recently, however, was another Myford, not another Super 7, but a 254S.

Also worth considering if something that bit smaller will meet your needs (standard bed length is 20", there are also long bed 30" machines), these are a real step forward from the Super 7. Much heftier in construction, and with a built in screw cutting gearbox, they are very capable little lathes.

Going back to the M300, I echo Alan Waddington's comments about spares prices for 600 Group machines (Colchester/Harrison). They frequently come stripped of accessories, and these aren't cheap, along with new spare parts.

To be honest, the same applies to the Boxford X10. I didn't mention in my earlier post the positive that these are still in production from Boxford, so ALL spare parts and accessories are available from Boxford, but they aren't cheap.

Edited By David Standing 1 on 09/11/2017 18:02:33

Hi Gary

Having recently gone through the same and viewing a load of s*** all over the country dealers included I ended up with a Runmaster 330 from Axminster tools http://www.axminster.co.uk/machinery/lathes/engineering-lathes.

Excellent service and no regrets, Highly recommended and a 3 year on site warranty

And the training courses they do are excellent as well Bob the instructor is Brilliant

check em out it won't cost you a penny online

Tony

PS where are you I be happy to show you mine......

Edited By Antony Powell on 09/11/2017 18:03:57

I started with a mini-lathe to gain experience. When I found I needed a bigger machine I was a lot more confident I could spot a pup. For various reasons I bought a new Warco and am happy with it. After using it for a couple of years I'm even more educated.

Now, would you learn to drive in a classic sports car bought sight unseen? I think most would agree that's unwise. Even if you get a good example, you might crash it!

I'd suggest starting with an inexpensive new lathe and using it to learn the ropes. Money spent on training and gaining experience is never wasted. Money spent on a crock is. You might find that a Chinese Lathe is 'good enough'. If so you've won. If any shortcomings annoy the hell out of you, you will know exactly what to look for in a second-hand machine.  In business, writing off an investment is expected, all you have to do is get value from it before moving on with something better.

Personally I don't like gambling unless I understand the odds. Dirty Harry said it best: 'you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk? '

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 09/11/2017 18:05:44

When i first started out in business for myself i bought a colchester student mk1..it was absolutely worn out really but it did what i wanted to do with it forward on 25 years and i have a small pot of cash that i thought would buy me a better lathe I was thinking student 1800 or so or a mk2 at the least after looking for ages on ebay etc i spotted a student mk 1.5 with lots of tooling and a start bid of £50 i enquirer if the seller was going to let it run or if they had a buy it now in mind and they replied if i offered enough it was mine.asking what was enough the reply above a £1000 came back so I rang him asked a few Q’s and offered £1k which he accepted I transferred £200 to secure it and then made arrangements to collect it (300 miles from me)

Hired a trailer and went to collect it .when i got there it was in fantastic condition what looked like surface rust on the ways and any bare steel was in fact a protective brown gloop which after removal with thinners left everything in superb condition wear wise.

And as i was there loading it up the tooling kept on coming out to be given to me chucks rotary tables collet chucks cutting tools general tools etc

Also it was fitted with a clutch which was a bonus...i hate starting and stopping motors constantly

After getting it home and installing it sold my old lathe instantly for £500 on gumtree surprisingly so that had cost me nothing over the 20 years i had had it

After a while i had this huge pile of surplus tooling that went on ebay and i got eventually over £1200 so in effect the lathe had cost me nothing..

So after all that good lathes can be had even if they are 30-40 years old and if you buy in big job lots you can reclaim some of your outlay..

And buying unseen isn’t so bad if you can scrutinise photo’s and ask questions and get what you think are honest answers. I was prepared to walk away if it was bad when i collected it and lose my deposit

Recently I went to a training workshop closing down they had 4 colchester students 1800’s and 4 similar far eastern lathes and Bridgeport’s and excell milling machines. All of the lathes and mills went for between 300-500 each

All of them were on ebay the next week at £3k or so each

So buying from a dealer gets you nothing in work done to the machine...i know they had to move it and lay out the cash and fees on ebay.

So if you can find a real life auction somewhere with lathes you may get a good bargain or keep on looking on ebay and get in quick if you see a good looking machine..remember the bigger machines put many hobbyists off hence prices are low

Again thanks for your replies, some interesting reading, and a complete variance of experiences.

I think there is some real truth in "do you feel lucky".

I live in sunny Norwich , Norfolk where I can never seem to find anything advertised that is suitable locally. So everything tends to require a long car drive, and the inevitable transport costs of getting something home.

Whilst I don't mind getting into the car to go and view something, I need to be half sure from initial pics and conversations etc that it might have a chance of being half descent.

Its a total minefield. But appreciate all your comments and experiences. I shall keep looking and will find something suitable, whether it is a gem or I pay through the nose for a dog which will undoubtably come out over time " posts for help" as I am new to the forum but have appreciated some of the comments and suggestions received on this and other posts. Again thanks

Gary

Carl,

Mostly where people have not read my initial posting and then told me what I have already stated or just gone off on a tangent.

You can't appreciate everything all the time, can you?

Gary

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 09/11/2017 19:51:57

For what its worth here's my tuppenyworth

A few years ago I wanted a bigger lathe and after some consideration I bought a seig lathe from axminster, it had all the bells and all the whistles. Long story short, after axminster replaced my first lathe with a second and it had all the same faults as the first I got a refund and bought a second hand M300.

I have been using it hapilly ever since

I dont know where you are located but try googling BBC Machine tools in Carluke, Lanarkshire. My lathe cost £1500 with three and four jaw chucks delivered, of course cash helps sweeten the deal

Dougie