Drummond M First Time Use Troubles!

Hi all,

I went to use my Drummond M Treadle Lathe for the first time today and had quite a bit of trouble. I am not sure of it is user error, tool problems or if I am asking too much of the lathe. My first project is a aluminium pulley, 2" in diameter and 1" in thickness. I have a aluminium round bar, about 2 1/2" in diameter, I went to cut a slice off using a hacksaw, but the blade was a little blunt so I decided to try and part it off instead. I got the bar set nicely in the lathe, supported on one end using the dead centre.

However, when trying to part off I kept having problems, with the lathe being really hard to turn, stopping and the belt coming off or the lathe simply taking insignificant amounts off. I tried both back gear and mid-pulley, but after 1 1/2hrs of hard effort on the treadle I had only gone in about 7mm! The parting off tool is 3/16th in width and I used paraffin as a cutting fluid.

I have made a very short video off my efforts:

Am I asking too much of the lathe? If so this might not be the lathe for me… If it's just me getting it wrong that's great, I hopefully can fix that.

Thoughts and suggestions very welcome!

Thanks,

James

Edited By James Jenkins 1 on 29/06/2016 22:02:10

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 29/06/2016 22:27:43

My first reaction is you are asking a lot of a treadle lathe... no doubt others will say you need rear toolpost or more horsepower.

But I think the answer is simple: Roll up your sleeves, keep treadling and wind the tool in with a bit more conviction instead of gently prodding the bar. It will be ahrd work and a 1/8" or 3/32" tool would make your life rather easier

The tool is clearly cutting fine when it makes the coiled chips so once that starts wind it in, start sweating and make it work.

Also, keep it sharp and I think you need to tighten the gibs to stop it all flapping in the wind like that.

Neil

well it certainly aint a quaint size of bar either, James! despite many of us thinking aluminium to be a rather soft material size is still a factor.

I would say it's a case of the tool digging in, as it would be liable to being drawn in to take a bigger bite on the front side, however once it gets to that stage it finds it doesn't have the force to finish the job and remove the slice so it stops or binds up as we would say. You could solve this in a number of ways, which don't necessarily involve a new machine, i'll leave that to the experts on the 'rums...

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 29/06/2016 23:23:58

Wot Neil said!

You're nearly there. Use a narrower blade, back gear and up the feedrate. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to part off on the Drummond; depending upon how fit you are of course. A third of a horsepower, 250W, should be more than adequate.

Andrew

One of the stiffest hobby lathes ever made, and once everything is set up right... no problems should be encountered

The war office mass produced them in the 1940s because they are so good

As mentioned though... it all depends on the horsie power available (and it's a lot! isn't it!)

I went to use my Drummond M Treadle Lathe for the first time today

Plus I think you may need to develop a bit of technique

Call me a party pooper but day one may be the first day of learning about what the next decade has to offer

And the one after that

And the... well you get the idea

Thanks for your replies and tips, it is good to know I am not a million miles away. Although 7mm an hour seems awfully slow!

Is there anything I can do about the belt coming off as soon as the going gets a bit tough?

James

I am not sure about the very fine swarf, Have you got any side relief on the tool? It could be that if the tool is not exactly at right angles then one of its sides would rub and produce the fine stuff. I use WD40 to cut ali.

Slipping belt, need more friction. What sort of belt have you got (flat or vee). The traditional way with flat belts is to use a patent compound or rosin. Vee belts should "dig" further into the groove so the friction increases.

Frank

You may not be asking too much, but you are asking a lot, possibly as much as the treadle powered machine can give. Compound that with inexperience and you are out of your joint comfort zone.

Parting off is one of the most fraught operations we carry out on a small lathe, even one as strong as the M type, so you need to take the advice offered so far and refine your technique.

The things that jumped out for me were the width of the tool, and the possibility of it being off square ..... to overcome those difficulties requires extra power which in itself can cause the belt to slip.

WD 40 will I think be better than paraffin on a brush, as Frank said.

Eug

Well one problem could be the illumination. You should be using gas light really.

;0)

Martin

Looks fun, keep it up.

no not asking to much of the lathe . could be technique wit the treadle I once used a coping/fret saw with a treadle . Its not as easy as you think . You need a good position and to keep it moving this may require a correct height seat or standing . Are the belt surfaces clean , Some lubrication as Fred suggested or some light gear oil will help cut . Power can be very useful have noticed my Drummond really required 1.5hp to get it working properly. This said it was run by treadle at some point in its life . Do you have the correct stand and flywheel ?

Unless I'm misremembering again, Andrew's Smiley is well justified. I seem remember an exhausting experiment at school that showed you need about 14 averagely fit youths to consistently output one horse power. After 20 minutes lifting bricks with a rope and pulley we were all knackered. Now I'm older and wiser I wouldn't repeat my part in the experiment without having a medical team present.

I played with a treadle lathe in a museum recently and, even without cutting anything, I found it impossible to keep going steadily . As treadles worked in the past, there must be a knack to it. Presumably it comes with practice. Or perhaps men were men back in the good old days!

Cheers,

Dave

When the competitors where designing man powered aeroplanes to claim the first Kremer prize they calculated that it would need an athlete who could sustain 1/3hp for the time required to cover the figure of eight course - this could only be achieved by a high class cyclist who also had the right power to weight ratio. I believe that pro cyclists can do rather better than this nowadays (even clean ones ) but Andrew's comment does put into perspective how little power is available at the spindle of a treadle lathe.

Rod

Do you have the right tool tip top rake? Al is usually cut with higher top rake than steel, and all small lathes with higher values than a big powerful one. This is ok because the tool doesn't need to be as strong as for steel. You can achieve this with a flat topped blade by raising it a bit above centre, Don't worry about the 'must be at centre height' bit as this only matters as you get close to the middle if you think about the geometry however extra front clearance may be desirable. With aluminium you want to cut with a fine edge rather than scrape with a less pointy corner. Think knife rather than axe.

If you have a problem with it snatching and pulling the tool in, then stalling, you need to adopt a technique of pushing the crosslide in with one hand so the screw is in effect holding it back. You then steadily turn the handle to let it advance. This takes up all the slack. Pushing the handle while turning it is not the same thing owing to the design and where the play comes from. Alternatively for one handed operation you can pull on the handle while turning it but this presents a problem each time you change your grip.

SillyOldDuffer , Well a third of a horse is what i started with was totally rubbish and of no use . My 1.5hp is now marvellous and can really say am pleased with it. Would not recommend anything less than this having tried what you suggested. Please don’t go this route on a Myford or Drummond you will be let down unless you go for 1.5hp like I was.

I reckon men have slowly become weaker but then we also live longer. You only need to look to their living conditions to see why they needed to be fit. I'm sure i'm definitely not as strong as a shire horse. Just look at those things. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 30/06/2016 19:56:54

The rest of the world seems to manage perfectly well with 1/2 hp on a 3 1/2" lathe (3/4 hp if you want to get to 2000rpm and your bearings will stand it).

Rod

i'm managing a clarke CLM430 on a 1HP, my pillar drill is 1/2hp and it's very strong, it's never struggled on a cut.

To get the biggest diameters you need to have the right pulley/gearing arrangment of course. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 30/06/2016 20:17:50

WEll Rod i have videos of both on this forum in the beginner section so you can see the rubish invert version I had the 1.5hp one is so much better runs lovely is 3000rpm and pullied down

New 1.5hp single phase much much better no slow down when cutting or no need to ramp up the Inverter to cope with cutting material

Old inverter version running more like a sewing machine had to be over driven to make it run up to speed at higher frequency and would not even drill a 3mm drill in a bar

Edited By Martin Newbold on 30/06/2016 20:44:30

Edited By Martin Newbold on 30/06/2016 20:47:47

I think the secret is technique ,and a good flywheel. My grandmother was a seamstress and worked a treadle sewing machine all day and she was about 5 stone. I understand that a fit cyclist can produce about 200 watts, a very fit one 500 W for a few seconds-- info from local cycling club.