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Sam Stones	25/04/2011 07:33:43
922 forum posts 332 photos	I wish I had said that John! That's (perhaps) where centre lines become necessary. In years gone by, shading of round(ed) parts was normal practice, and which served to make ones drawings `come alive'. Sam Edited By Sam Stones on 25/04/2011 07:38:40
Andrew Johnston	25/04/2011 09:37:32
7061 forum posts 719 photos	Precisely why I pointed out that the number of solutions is infinite! The curve doesn't need to be part of a circle, so centre lines wouldn't necessarily help. Regards, Andrew
Chris Trice	25/04/2011 10:24:28
1376 forum posts 10 photos	I don't think it matters what form drawings take as long as they are clear and dimensions clearly illustrated. Sam's post above shows that a good three quarter view often helps in interpretation. Some people can imagineer in 3D in their heads (I can) based on 2D drawings where others (like my brother) can't. The most important thing is that ALL the required information is provided. I sell a series of technical drawings of quite complicated models and all the feedback I've received suggest the inclusion of the three quarter views amongst th 2D helps everything drop into place. I think there's also a fine line between offering feedback and bullying. The owners of the magazine have the right to publish what they think will sell. If they get it wrong, market forces will show them their error. A wise editor will listen to feedback but is not obliged to act on it. Everyone wants to have their opinion heard but the decision still lies with the editor.Clearly, a large number of readers would welcome such an article but if I was honest, in the leisurely context with which I read magazines, I'd probably skip over it. If I wanted to get into the subject, I'd buy a book.
Richard Parsons	25/04/2011 10:41:24
645 forum posts 33 photos	On the subject of surveys. As a wise one once said “If I do not know what people want how can I sell it to them? The survey will tell the editors what the readers are really interested in, and what they are not. Now I have no interest in building railway locomotives. There is nowhere I can run them. In the U.K. my local club only wanted ‘Qualified Drivers’ –people with 5” locos to pull the punters round-. Had I built such a locomotive I would have seldom able to drive it myself as this would be left to the little clique deemed qualified to do so. I do however enjoy reading the construction articles like thinking about them and how locomotives could be improved. ICs. Yes perhaps, clocks –sometimes- and so on, but that is all for the survey. Could I think of new topics here the answer could well be yes. .
NJH	25/04/2011 11:00:08
2314 forum posts 139 photos	Chris Exactly. Just what I was thinking when I posted on page 5 of this saga som eons ago - but more clearly expressed by you! I think the editor should by now have a clear view of the opinions of the few who post on this thread and must now consider these compared with those of the many who read the magazine and have the opportunity, should they so wish, to respond to the survey. Regards Norman Edited By NJH on 25/04/2011 11:01:39 Edited By NJH on 25/04/2011 11:02:19
John Stevenson	25/04/2011 11:09:23
5068 forum posts 3 photos	Reading Richards post two up [ if no one gets in quick ] Which I have seen mirrored in other posts and my own views match up I think we need a survey that asks :- Are Clubs doing all they can for the hobby ? From what I have seen and read Clubs are all about loco's but the hobby is by no means all about loco's. Are they stuck in time ? John S.
David Clark 1	25/04/2011 11:38:08
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles	Hi There A filled in survey is of more interest to me than posts on this website although I do take notice of some of them. At least I know when I receive the survey, they have bothered to buy the magazine rather than just complain on this site. regards David
Steve Garnett	25/04/2011 12:24:55
837 forum posts 27 photos	Posted by John Stevenson on 25/04/2011 11:09:23: Reading Richards post two up [ if no one gets in quick ] Which I have seen mirrored in other posts and my own views match up I think we need a survey that asks :- Are Clubs doing all they can for the hobby ? From what I have seen and read Clubs are all about loco's but the hobby is by no means all about loco's. Are they stuck in time ? I strongly suspect that part of the problem here is that the clubs have no more idea of how to go about this than anybody else appears to have - and possibly not the will to do it either, because they don't see it as a part of their remit to do so. Look at it historically - a bunch of people get together to form what they call a model engineering club, but is in reality a collective model train running service. We have evidence that this is really all it is, at least in some cases, because of the complaining correspondence here from potential members who have their own premises rather sniffily vetted before membership is even considered. They are only allowed to join if their facilities meet a rather arbitrary train-building specification. But, all the time these clubs have a viable level of membership based on this, then why should they bother to alter anything? There is absolutely no law preventing them from being elitist, is there? I don't think that they are stuck in time as such, but stuck in an agenda. I'm sure that they wouldn't see it quite like that, but I'm afraid that I do, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not alone in that. What is possibly most annoying about this is that these particular clubs that have names that don't truly represent their activities confuse the heck out of people who don't understand this (probably because they do understand English), and I think that all of the complaints from this POV are fully justified. Now I know that not all clubs fall into this category, and that there are plenty that welcome members with other engineering interests with open arms - but how are people supposed to tell??? But John, I'm not even sure that we can call it 'the hobby' - I think that it's distinctly more than one. It's not just about model engineering - and only partly because we can't all agree on a definition of 'model' in this context. There are people who simply like to maintain workshops and make equipment to use in them - that doesn't sound like model engineering at all to me; it's just engineering in your garden. And I think that there's quite a major distinction between the hobby these people have, and people who build model boats, for instance. And it's all this stuff, and more besides, that make me think that constructing any questionnaire to truly get to the bottom of all this, and what everybody really do in this regard in their leisure time, is fraught with a lot of difficulties, snags and pitfalls. But until this is seriously recognised, and acted upon, we aren't really going to move forward into engineering/model making as a more disparate hobby with publications that will more accurately reflect what people do - not what they want, because I don't think that most of them truly know that. Let me give you an example: We keep being told that people are prepared to accept n pages on any given subject in MEW or whatever. What does this mean? I don't think anybody really knows. For instance, would you rather read one page of something either very useful or truly inspiring on a given subject, or 5 pages of semi-waffle? How much difference does the number of photographs/drawings actually make, and why? Does who wrote it make a difference? What makes more sense in this particular regard is to ask people to judge individual articles, because at least then you would be able to correlate the information you got with with a tangible product. You might not like the results too much, but at least it would be honest... But even that is a compromise, because it's only looking backwards. And that's why I think it's more important to look at the attitudes of people, because that way it might become clearer as to how to fulfil what it is that is motivating them. And for all I know, it may well not be what any of us think. I'm sorry that this sounds a bit like a rant - and it is, really - but I think it's something that needs to be said.
David Clark 1	25/04/2011 12:49:09
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles	Hi Graham I can't see the posting about- How about answering the previous posting from me in "Where is Terry when you need him", or is it beneath your dignity? What is it about? regards David
David Clark 1	25/04/2011 13:48:17
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles	Hi Graham I can't seem to find it. What thread is it on? regards david
David Clark 1	25/04/2011 16:10:41
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles	Hi Grahame I have found my posting. What did you want me to do with it? regards David
Chris Trice	27/04/2011 22:13:05
1376 forum posts 10 photos	Slowly losing the will to live reading the barely concealed animosity being shown. It's getting old. In respect of technical drawings, I don't think it matters what form they take as long as ALL the necessary information and dimensions needed are included and the shape of the item is clear. A good three quarter view often paints the picture more clearly.
Steve Garnett	28/04/2011 00:36:09
837 forum posts 27 photos	I think that this is my personal favourite solution so far: Apologies for the only approximately correct (and oversize) isometric projection - it's only to give you the idea.
Martin W	28/04/2011 10:32:06
940 forum posts 30 photos	Hi Steve While I like your solution it is only stable if the right angle corner of the supporting block is aligned with the gravitational field and the centre line of the cylinder, excludes magnetic or other supporting forces, and as such is only conditionally stable . I believe that, and I am expecting to be shot down on this point, if the system is to be stable then the cylinder must be attached to the concave surface and this would result in at least one hidden construction line being required on the other views. All that waffle over I think your solution is the best so far. Cheers Martin
Steve Garnett	28/04/2011 10:43:28
837 forum posts 27 photos	Okay, perhaps I should have indicated which direction gravity was working in on the drawing... But regardless of that, I think that original views supporting multiple possibilities in the side views deserve a technically correct but unstable solution, don't they? And anyway, a perfect sphere meeting a perfect curve has an almost infinitesimally small contact plane - to the extent that you might determine that they weren't in contact anyway, therefore no hidden line is necessary, it could be argued. And if you think that one's bad I have an even more unlikely solution which has the curved surface as convex, not concave! Edited By Steve Garnett on 28/04/2011 11:00:18
Martin W	28/04/2011 11:22:12
940 forum posts 30 photos	Steve I totally agree with what you say that any solution stable or not is worth consideration. The one you suggest with a convex surface I like as well and would make a great balancing act !! I had thought of, but not attempted to draw, of a solution with a slightly corrugated surface where you have got the concave one. Great fun to play with the possibilities and helps keep the grey matter ticking over after retirement. Best regards Martin
NJH	28/04/2011 11:44:34
2314 forum posts 139 photos	Hi Steve & Martin ......but say this was the output from the design office of the velcro factory.? Regards Norman
Martin W	28/04/2011 12:24:01
940 forum posts 30 photos	Hi Norman That of course would have been designed using 'fuzzy logic' or something similar . I find it fascinating that once one solution has been submitted then the offshoots from this get even more involved while staying within the limits of the original submission. Great stuff all the same. Regards Martin
Steve Garnett	28/04/2011 21:53:02
837 forum posts 27 photos	Posted by Martin W on 28/04/2011 11:22:12: Great fun to play with the possibilities and helps keep the grey matter ticking over after retirement. I think I ought to confess... I woke up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night a couple of nights ago, and there it was, fully formed, in my mind. This probably explains the slightly left-field nature of it; it certainly wasn't quite what I was expecting, and it was definitely sub-conscious. Whilst having this happen occasionally has its uses, I wouldn't want it to occur too often! And no, I haven't retired either. In fact I have no intention of doing so - can't see the point. As for what makes either the concave or convex version stay together (if that's what they are really intended to do) - well, it might be possible by carefully magnetising the objects, although clearly that wouldn't be very stable either. As far as being objects for testing Velcro (is that what you were hinting at?) - Norman, have you been at the sherry again? Regards, Steve Edited By Steve Garnett on 28/04/2011 21:54:09
NJH	28/04/2011 23:13:20
2314 forum posts 139 photos	Hi Steve No not testing velcro - I was thinking made entirely of velcro! Curved velcro plane and velcro cylinder one with hooks the other with eyes . I really like the idea that this is fuzzy logic - but then, as my wife often tells me, my mind works in mysterious ways ( that is when it works at all!) Now then to more important things:- sherry - no no ! only useful for trifle BUT, by a mysterious coincidence, a connection ( rather tenuous of course) has just sprung into my mind between your sherry and Old Hooky Ale - now we're talking and, since you mention it I recall that I have a couple of bottles in the cupboard. It would be really nice to share them with you but I guess that's not possible so I must just make the best of it and despatch them myself! Best Regards Norman P.S If your are into the sherry I'm not surprised that you wake up in a sweat in the night! Edited By NJH on 28/04/2011 23:15:30

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