Is CAD for Me?

I found this rather amusing, thanks to the last sentence:

Come learn with us!

Nigel.

My working life was as a software developer with a large computer manufacturer. I've been retired for over 20 years. New programming languages were learnt from formal descriptions of the instruction sets, so I was quite at home with the TC User Guide which was distributed as a PDF with the program. I use a rather old V21 Pro Professional system. Instructions were chosen to achieve desired results, both in a program language and TC. In my case I found the best way of making progress was by reading the manuals with the objective of solving the current problem. I found videos to be not very helpful in this respect.

The TC manual I used was basically a list of the available tools, grouped into related sections, with each tool's controls being properly described. By knowing the purpose of each tool, and how they were controlled I was able to decide what to use to get the required result. I tried watching videos but found I made progress only when I had a personal project that I had to complete. In TC I eventually reached the stage where I could draw faster with TC than I could with pencil and paper.

Fusion was different. There is no detailed list and descriptions of the numerous tools. I found the tutorial videos interesting until I attempted to copy them. When I got different results I couldn't tell if I had done something wrong, or if the program had been updated to make the tutorial out of date. Either way I found it difficult. The mug lid was my first real Fusion project. It was very simple, but it worked, and gave me the confidence to persevere. I'm still learning (it's a massive system) but my confidence is growing.

TC and Fusion have very different ways of creating 2D drawings. TC has the concept of Model Space and Paper Space. The model (2D or 3D) is always created in model space, and sections called Views are defined by creating bounding rectangles. The views can contain 2D or 3D models. There is an additional facility known as the Drafting Pallet, in which orthogonal views of 3D models can be defined. Switching to paper space reveals a window that contains all or part of a standard, user specified, drawing sheet. Any of the views, including those from the drafting pallet, can be inserted anywhere in the sheet. It is possible to add dimensions to paper space, and to honour any layers defined in the model. There can be multiple paper spaces. Dimensions in model space are only descriptive - if a dimension is changed manually, the entity to which it refers remains unaltered. Each TC file contains the model and any defined paper spaces.

Fusion has no concept of layers, model, or paper space. Every item created has its own "light bulb", which controls its visibility. Dimensions are used in the 2D sketches or tools used to create features of the 3D model. If they are subsequently changed, the model is automatically updated to reflect those changes. All dimensions can be given names and values which are kept in a list. Changing values in the list will cause the model to be updated. Features are combined to create entities called "components". Components can be grouped together by "joints" which can allow movement and animation. 2D drawings are created separately, in a separate file. Orthogonal views are created automatically and dimensions can be added at will. Changes to the original model are reflected in the 2D drawings. The 2D drawings have nothing like the versatility of TC, and seem to me to be rather clumsy in comparison.

To answer your question about the mug lid. In both TC and F360 I basically drew a 2D representation of a X-section which was revolved to create a 3D model of the required STL. It wasn't possible to change the sizes in TC, but was quite trivial in F360.

This is strange. My e-mail list shows Gary has replied to the above, and I can read it there, but it just does not appear on this site.

I've noticed too that just because your notification gives you the link, it won't necessarily go to the thread indicated. Nor will logging-in above a given, open thread, keep you on that thread. Instead it goes off to any other you've used.

I can see Gary's post OK?

By the way, the email from Alibre isn't assuming you have bought the product - it's offering you a PDF version of the tutorial series in case you have struggled with the trial. You might want to give it a go before giving up?

Yes you can make 2D drawings in TurboCAD. It's a bit involved but you open a new window with template for a drawing page, and insert each view as a 'viewport' (I think that's the word) looking at the object from the appropriate direction.

Neil

Yes Gary's post is showing up OK for me much the same as one of my posts you could not see either.

Why not just stay logged in then you won't get lost so easily.

Oh typical!!!

I posted the above, and it made Gary's post appear!

Anyway, Gary -

You had the benefit of proper training and professional experience. My training, at work, was only an introduction to using MS' ordinary Office programmes, though including the nightmare of Access.

I think the edition of TC you used was earlier than mine. The User's Guide with TC 19 Deluxe is very haphazard, and the quality of instructions with each tool very variable from sufficient to practically non-existent. Sometimes it even gives a heading above a different topic.

Making a printed index certainly helped because a pdf document can be searched only by page-number. I was surprised though that I could make that index, as I'd always thought pdf files are locked images. (I know Adobe offers a converter but only by costly rental.)

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I find that Model Space / Paper Space business very confusing, worsened by the " Viewport " routine and TC's printer-settings menus. They differ in the paper sizes they offer, and at least one lacks ISO A sizes.

Dimensions: I think you can set the dimensioning in TC so changing the entity changes the annotation automatically; but I don't know how. Not vice-versa though. The dimension system is very confusing, but at least I can alter dimensions' labels to my intended values!

TurboCAD uses Snaps extensively, but you often have to turn them off for tools you assume would need them.

TC's equivalent to Fusion's " components " seems to be Boolean Adding / Subtracting. TC offers no animation.

If my edition of TC has that " Drafting Pallet ", it might be among the many tools I have not used.

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It odes not surprise me Fusion's 2D mode is weak, because AutoDESK wants you to use its industrial-grade orthographic AutoCAD. No " layers "? I thought they are a fundamental CAD drawing principle, so does it hide the concept in those other methods?

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You say you could not change that revolved mug lid in TurboCAD. For a quick test, I drew a simple, chamfered quadrilateral like the section of a lathe dovetail, turned it into a polyline; then Revolved it to a cylinder with a countersunk end. Now the real test: and yes, I changed its overall length and diameter. I doubt it's possible to change its shape though.

Jason -

It doesn't let me either log in or stay logged in, consistently and reliably. To do this now, I had to close the lot and come back in.

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Neil -

Thank you, but I tried what Alibre seemed to be offering a few days ago. It waited until I'd loaded the programme, then said the trial period had ended. I was surprised at first then realised I should have expected that.

Trying again would be a big gamble. It won't be any use if I can't produce orthographic workshop drawings of what I want to design and make, but whilst 3D CAD may be a useful option if was capable of learning it, Alibre puts that huge barrier in the way by default.

I'd only be able to complete whatever trial it offers by hours of successfully fighting a new but slimmed-down package from scratch before it expires. Then I'd have to buy the full edition if I felt I could take it further.

If I buy it then it becomes too hard, I will have wasted a lot of money and time. The whole exercise would be so desperately frustrating and discouraging it may even damage my interest in the model-engineering I had hoped it would support.

Nigel

I had no formal training in reading technical manuals - I had a 2 week introduction to programming course when I joined the company, but after that I was on my own. I did, however, have the advantage of being able to ask questions.

The PDF User Guide that came with TCad V21 PP contains 1154 pages, and is quite comprehensive, but it's not a How-To manual. It describes the functions of the multitude of tools, but not how to use them. An analogy could be descriptions of various paints, paint brushes, and canvases, but no assistance on how to paint a picture.

You are right, changing an entity causes the dimensions to change (that's called "associated dimensions", but manually changing a dimension has no effect on the entity.

Fusion has no layers. Instead, it creates a list of every entity you create, together with a name (which you can change). Next to each name is a symbolic lightbulb which you can switch on or off. The entity is visible only if the lightbulb is on. Groups of entities are controlled in the same way. This gives far more control than layers can provide.

Fusion also uses snaps, but they are rather more intuitive than TC's.

It's possible that the drafting pallet is only in TC PP.

The problem with changing the size of the mug-lid was that the shape had to subtly change as well. It just wasn't feasible in TC.

I think you're wrong in thinking that Fusion's poor 2D drawing is intentional so as to prevent it usurping AutoDesk's other products. Fusion is relatively new and the main thrust has been to create a superior modelling system. I think that the 2D drawing section is still being developed.

Did you take a look at the Philippines series I mentioned. The new entries for 2019 are a good place to start - the challenges get more difficult in later months.

Alibre's at it again - e-posting me things I can't use! This time I'd left Atom loaded, but when I tried to open the simplest of several exercises they'd sent, Alibre told me (more or less), "SHAN'T! Licence expired!".

Clearly one department not knowing what the other's done. Mind you, the exercises all looked far more advanced than that scribing-block in the MEW series.

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Tried again following the introductory exercise on the introductory CD issued with the TurboCAD programme itself. At least it uses step-by-step instructions, not a wretched video of an expert showing he finds CAD easy. At the dimensioning stage it all went to rats as every attempt to dimension it as it told me, failed on an error message about no snap points or something. I found I have to dimension objects only approximately, by eye, then edit the value texts to the right numbers; so defeating one of the programmes' main features.

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So what now?

Obviously, I can't learn 3D modelling. Unfortunately though, nor can I learn 2D (orthographic) CAD drawing beyond a very basic level.

Is CAD for me?

Well, yes, but only at a very primitive level of rough, single-layer, 2D drawings with semi-manual dimension and line-type editing, and non-scale prints. Its only advantages over manual drawing are such as easily copying objects around the image.

It doesn't sound like CAD is for you, but you'll never know for sure until you check out MoI.

Nigel.

If you live anywhere near Warwick then I'd be happy to teach you to use either Tcad or Fusion, or both. I'm certain I can make your "penny drop".

Gary - thank you for your very kind offer!

Unfortunately I live in South Dorset.

I'd stick to TurboCAD - having made a little progress and started using it to help me design my steam-wagon engine it would not really help me to try to learn a very different package. I did briefly try Fusion but with no success. The snag is that there is an entire mint of pennies to drop, and none are at all intuitive.

The TC User's Forum Gallery shows very many wonderful brochure-quality pictures, both engineering and architectural, but I think they are all by full-time designers who use TurboCAD professionally.

I don't know anyone locally who uses TurboCAD, who could help me.

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Blowlamp - I think you're right, at least as far as 3D CAD modelling goes, but I would like at least to make ordinary orthographic workshop drawings with it. I am not bothered about those brochure pictures, but I'd hoped to be able to learn the 3D mode as an adjunct, for such things as assembly-drawings.

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Maybe true ... 'though the introductory text doesn't inspire confidence that it will be an easy ride:

**LINK** http://moi3d.com/

MichaelG.

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Edit: This might be a good place to start:

http://moiusers.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2012-10-09T07:31:00-07:00&max-results=7

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/06/2019 08:48:40

[This posting has been removed]

Sorry Chaps - you've lost me with that abbreviation - MOI?

I'm not trying to place " constraints " on anything. Nature does that, imposing learning limits as natural as height or eye-colour. I do not choose mine, but wish they were a lot wider.

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" 3D in MOI is really a case of imagining your model/structure... [of a subject] ... defined by a plan view ... "

I understand that, probably true of all 3D packages.

I can imagine the subject, both in three dimensions and in plan.

I can't understand how to turn that 3D mental image into the 3D CAD model version; i.e., with using the software as I had hoped possible!

Another thread shows how to model a tool-post key in 3D in FreeCAD. I could do the same in TurboCAD, without minor details like chamfers; but only because it is 5 symmetrical elements I can join on one axis by co-ordinate calculations. Such sums are theoretically not necessary; but anyway impracticable for drawing the model dinghy or aircraft wing.

(By "minor details" I meant minor only on the drawing - the real thing needs the chamfers, but if unable to draw them I would use text descriptors instead.)

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" ... would not meet BS308 standards... "

If I had to meet such artificialities, I'd be a fully-trained professional who obviously always found CAD very easy to learn!

However, I would like to be able to do things like adding automatically correct dimensions to useable drawings of correctly-sized objects; rather than having to use guesswork, text-editing and untidy, mis-aligned dimension lines.

(TurboCAD lets you Snap dimensions to their true points, but it doesn't let me do that. I can only use the cursor only, by eye. So the objects are accurate, but their dimensions very inaccurate and untidy; even when I carefully follow an introductory exercise. Nothing indicates what I may have missed, mis-read or mis-set, when or where.)

MOI Moment Of Inspiration.

Brian

Oh dear ... am I on Nigel's "Ignore member" list already ?

No CAD system is a complete breeze, but which bit of text in the link do you think doesn't inspire confidence?

MoI is also a fantastic complementary tool for a polygon-based artist since its CAD toolset and advanced boolean functions enable extremely rapid creation of mechanical or man-made type “hard surface” models. The icing on the cake is MoI’s unique polygon mesh export that generates exceptionally clean and crisp N-Gon polygon meshes from CAD NURBS models.

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Bearing in mind the title of this thread .... A bit jargon-laden is it not ?

MichaelG.

The text I've highlighted above leads me to think that paragraph is aimed at the well-versed user or professional modeller, so some jargon might be necessary.