Mystery object

I agree the .375 calibre but have never seen pointed boat tail bulets used in an H & H .375. The bullets have always been round nose and flat based ( recovered from game shot by Game wardens) H & H ammo is maximum impact, ie. Elephant or cape Buffalo control.

F Dunlap was an acknowledged master gunsmith and he only lists the .375 once in his book. Saying it was very accurate and used out to 250 yards range.

In the cartridge listings I can find no other listing of that calibre so it is a mystery indeed.

It doesn’t look much like rifling marks.

That's why I posted photographs of pointed boat tail H&H .375 bullets and linked to the webshop where you can buy them (legalities permitting).

Same webshop also sells round nosed and blunt bullets exactly of the type Clive mentions, but trust me they aren't the only type available. Sharp pointed boat-tailed 0.375 bullets aren't unusual, at least in the US.

Thanks to Vic for the lovely clear photos of rifling marks. I spent a good 40 minutes looking on the web without finding any. Ho hum.

Dave

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Sorry, Dave … Can we please distinguish between ‘pointed’ and ‘conical’

All of the images you have posted have, I believe, ogival shapes [regardless of the sharpness of the very tip]

MichaelG.

I apologise for the poor original photos of this object; they were taken by someone else on another forum, and they are all there were to copy. The marks are from the owner's crude attempts at cleaning the object by scraping. 

If one was trying to make a plumb bob, you wouldn't cut a slot like that for the string, because the bob would very likely hang crooked, which would be of limited use.

Surely you would drill a hole for the string in the centre of the flat end?

Edited By John Doe 2 on 09/03/2022 08:10:00

Hi Mick, thanks for your information although I'm not familiar with the technical jargon. The actual weight of the bullet, which I didn't think to include, currently weighs 11,1793 grams.

Regards Nick.

About 172 grains, and flat based, so not M1 or M2 ball.

Opens the question of where your bullet came from, then. You've got a case that's been fired at full pressure, and a bullet that hasn't. It looks as if the bullet may not've come from an identical round to the case. An outside possibility is that it's an American-made .303 calibre bullet (actual diameter nominally .311"  ). A normal .30 calibre bullet would measure .308" diameter, but a .311" might finger-fit into an expanded fired .30 caseneck.

Dunno....

Edited By Mick B1 on 09/03/2022 09:34:04

No, I meant to draw attention to the shape at the end of the cone - the point or tip.

Bullets and shells often have a conical shape where the curve is defined as an ogive. However, it's the tip I'm interested in because it's exact form depends on the intended target. Large animals are shot at relatively short range (less than 250 metres) with a heavy blunt bullet designed to deliver maximum energy to the target by not coming out the other side. Conversely, long-range requires an aerodynamic bullet with a long sharp cone at the front and a curved 'boat-tail' at the rear to reduce drag. Improved aerodynamics reduce the weight of the bullet, and the shape means they are more likely to pass clean through animals, thus causing less damage than they could. Long range shooting at animals is unkind and stupid, because it's more likely to cause painful non-fatal wounds than a clean kill.

The mystery object comes to a sharp point (albeit rounded at the very end) rather than being blunt or round like these examples:

All I'm saying is the mystery object is consistent in size and shape with a long-range 0.375 H&H bullet like this Nosler example:

The examples pictured in this post are all hunting bullets, designed to expand on impact. This is undesirable when target shooting, so it's possible to buy solid bullets in 0.375 H&H specifically intended to fly long distances with minimum deviation to punch a clean round hole in a sheet of paper.

Irrespective of tip form, the examples are all genuine 0.375 Holland & Holland cartridges. As the sharp pointed H&H bullets are very similar in size and shape to the mystery object, I'm moderately confident it's a .375 H&H, make and age unknown. (Digging around the web, I found .375 H&H is a British round developed for African game during the Empire. The mystery object might have been made in the UK long ago. Does anyone have any old H&H catalogues?)

I see Nick got the mystery object's weight - about 11.2g. This is about 173grains, which is lighter than all my examples:

Nosler = 270gr = 17.5g
Federal = 300gr = 19.4g

The mystery object's light weight suggests it's a target or match bullet, which I think Mick said early in the thread.

Dave

Hi Mick B1, I don't know any history of the bullet and casing, but the bullet was in the casing and I had to reshape the out of shape open end with a little light peening, using a 7.9mm twist drill and a small brass hammer with a nylon head to get the bullet out, but it was still a bit tight to get out and I had to grip the bullet in a cheap ally vice from Aldi's with rubber protectors on the jaws, while wriggling the casing off. The other casing had no bullet in it, but the open end still has a slightly crimped edge and remains of knurling's on the inside that match the pitch of the knurling's on the bullet that I've shown, but of course it may be a marriage as you suggest.

Thanks again for your info.

Regards Nick.

Don't really need a pointy end to tie on a bit of string to check verticals. And don't forget, a lathe is far more complicated to set up to ensure hole is EXACTLY central to diameter than a vice (vise) and a hacksaw.

Regards Ian.

Just to make a point, the original bullet depicted was .9.52 dia. convert to Imperiel at 0.375".

The 0.300 calibre references are not valid.

Regarding hunting in Africa, most big game is taken with one of the following. No.1 or No.2 rifle in 0.500 calibre. S/S, then .458 Win. mag. and I have seen .470 Franz Zodia rifles O/U beautifly engraved.

John Hunter shot elepants with a 6.5 mm rifle, walking up under the head and shooting up vertically and stepping away as it fell.

That said, the .375 is the minimum cal. for hunting the big Five game animals. In 1963 a .375 H & H round cost 15 EA shillings, No one bought a box, just enough to set the sights and 2 rounds for each game animal licensed to shoot.

White hunters used mainly 8mm or .270 cal. for small game for feeding safaris. 12gauge shotguns for birds.

Ammunition was strictly controlled in Kenya, I was limited to 50 rounds of 12gauge and had to go back and have to ask for more, eventually ending up with 250 to buy at one time.

.22 was one 50 round box at a time. Full bore ammo as said on a need basis.

All hunting now stopped in Kenya.

References to this calibre were made in response to Nick Farr's photo of his round in P2 of this thread, or at least mine were.

Nevertheless I've not succeeded in discovering any .30-06 standard ball bullets of ~172 grains without boat tails, and I've wondered if it's a US-made .303/.311" Mk.VII ball (nominally 174 grains) at the light end of the tolerance range.

Just as I don't think anyone's yet found a .375 boat tail bullet with a conical spire point.

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Then I think it's best that I withdraw completely from the discussion

But before so-doing, I must emphasize that a cone has a curve of infinite radius (i.e. a straight line) .. which is what appears to be on the mystery object, and is definitely on the Russian patent.

MichaelG.

Hi, have to agree with MichaelG about a cone.

Regards Nick.