Buying a small mill

Looks like Neil's thankyou post was a touch premature.

I did suspect my contribution might be misinterpreted. I'm still not 100% sure that it was, but as someone with all-Chinese machine tools in my workshop and, more significantly, close family connections to China, including someone who was a female lathe operator in a Chinese factory in the 1970's, I tend not to take the mickey out of Chinese stuff.

Certain people, on the other hand, with absurdly contradictory viewpoints about China/Chinese stuff, who routinely express outdated, wholly negative views about it and then in the next breath drool over new Chinese machinery like the SX3.5, are fair game for a bit of joshing, in my book.

Hi Bill,

Perfect timing. Great how you poured cold water over a hot topic.

Todays virtual factory meeting was about delay in shipments and deliveries. This picture was provided to me a few hours ago to show that they can only send out 10 pcs of SX3.. which are expected to be ready for shipment by end of this month, as part of a larger order for various machines and accessories. Then we will be fighting for vessel space. Funny what they churned out since your last picture

The container with the next batch of SX3.5's finally left on vessel MSC MIA on 4th May, and expected to arrive Felixstowe on or around 2nd June 2020... hopefully... with a little prayer, a song and a dance.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 07/05/2020 12:47:16

Do I take it Ketan that these Seig mills are from a different source than the other coloured varieties. The reason I ask is because I have read very little in the way of complaint regarding any of the Seig products. Only good things have been said.

Steve.

Hi Steve,

In the U.K., SIEG sells to Axminster, ARC. There are different models in SIEGs range, all of which can be seen on SIEGs site: www.siegind.com

Axminster sells a bigger range of SIEG machines than ARC. Currently SX2P is exclusive to ARC, but Axminster has a variant, and at present SX3.5DZP is only sold by ARC in the U.K.. Axminster may or may not sell these or their variant in the future, which is up to them to decide.

Chester, Clarke/Machine Mart, Sealey/Draper sell some of the 'base level models' under their own brands.

Complaints will always be there - be it SIEG or any other make machines. SIEG is not necessarily a saint, and nor is ARC. ARC only sells SIEG machines because we only want to deal with one set of gremlins, and we have a close relationship with the factory. Just because something is made by SIEG doesn't mean that it is 'special'. Reasons for these complaints are variable:

• assembly issue at factory
• expectation for price
• importer buying and selling the 'basic specification' - eg. Clarke CL300M = base brushed motor model C2, and CMD10 - base model X1, cmd300/draper 34023 - base model X2. Nothing wrong with these models but marketing perception combined with poor user knowledge/dirty U.K.power/lack of overload protection (because importer chose base model) results in breakage/circuit board damage to which you referred to earlier.
• lack of use of machines resulting in damp/corrosion effecting machine.
• NDIY said it well earlier - it is the end user who dictates price. It is human nature to look for and get a bargain, and/or wanting the cheapest price, with or without understanding what he/she is buying... especially off certain places off auction sites!... When things go wrong, and if the purchase was made without understanding, it is never the users fault is it?... well that is debatable CE / fit for purse vs fit for purpose / poor knowledge.. debates start there after.
• During the past three years we have seen a growth in demand from newcomers into the hobby who have a lot of enthusiasm, but very little knowledge. Some follow good guidance, and others follow crap guidance.. extensively be it on Youtube or elsewhere, and then they feel that they know everything. We all follow what we believe in, regardless of how good or bad the information is. This results in complaints which aren't really an issue.
• Control and balance of ego, perception, expectation based on price a person wishes to pay, and poor knowledge, are always a concern.
• Creative marketing by certain sellers also has a contributing factor to play in the complaints.

Ketan at ARC.

I have never mentioned round column mills. Someone else may have. As for middle east I am sorry if I have upset you. Not intended. I know some good & even better than our gear comes out of Japan. Look at their cars & motorcycles. As for taps. My point should have been you get what you pay for. A cheap tap or die is never going to last as long as a good quality version. Also yes I see how we can all slip in a comment about we know nothing a few weeks ago & suddenly we are experts. That is true with me. I have little experience with milling & are having to learn the hard way. But getting there slowly. As for knowledge on buying equipment I would have thought that maybe that was a different subject altogether. I read the forum posts & watch a lot of youtube video's including yours.

Maybe I am totally wrong with that & because in yesteryear we had no internet. We could not read what people had said about the rubbish Myford/ Harrison/ Colchester etc machines that were made here or in the US.

So again sorry to offend you. By the way I do have a lot of Asian equipment in my garage & it all works as intended.

Steve.

If a new Chinese hobby lathe today were as well designed, well made, precise, reliable and durable as the 1969 Honda 750/4, at less than the cost of its British competition as it was, I'd have one in my shed for sure. The Japanese bikes set revolutionary new standards for precision, performance, reliability and durability. They were second to none, including the twice as expensive BMWs...

As good as the Chinese lathes may be for the price etc, they have not set the same kind of revolutionary new standards of precision and quality the Japanese motorcycles did. I don't see a comparison at all.

As good as the Chinese lathes may be for the price etc, they have not set the same kind of revolutionary new standards of precision and quality the Japanese motorcycles did. I don't see a comparison at all.

It was just an example. I very much doubt the UK could manufacture, and market, lathes and mills of the quality that can come from China at competitive prices. The UK can now use the exact same manufacturing machinery, or even better, but that will not beat the price of chinese origin machines.

One difference in the old UK manufacturing industry was that second rate machines/parts (basically manufacturing rejects) were not sold on to third parties who then sold complete ‘out of spec’ machines to unsuspecting end users!

Except for things like the Norton Commando 750 Combat with self-exploding main bearings at 3,000 miles. Or the Matchie twins with self-snapping crankshafts. Triumph twins with cylinders bored at an angle to the base surface. Or BSA twins in 1969 with porous cylinder head castings. Or the Norton gearbox layshaft bearings that failed regularly and locked the transmission up, smashing the casing. Oh no, wait. They were not sold out the back door. They were on the dealership floors.

I doubt too that UK could match Chinese labour costs, or working conditions like these Chinese factory workers: Take a minute to watch it. It is mind boggling to say the least. The other end of the spectrum from the Sieg factory!

Edited By Hopper on 08/05/2020 10:34:55

Possibly moved on since 2007 when the video was posted and who knows when it was actually filmed.

Very impressed with the sieg video. Looks like the Hass factory. Very neat.

Steve.

The BSA Fury and Triumph Bandit came 5 years too late. When you consider the opposition to Hondas CB72 was the BSA C15 the only excuse you can think of is British stupidity.

Not at all, my WM18 was was OK out of the box and I've done nothing to it since apart from fit a DRO. All my other Chinese machines also worked out of the box, but benefited from some minor fettling. By far the worst was my bandsaw, on first sight very discouraging, but despite being rough, it actually works well. Not much work needed, better than a kit of parts, but not a polished product. My favourite tool because it saves so much hard labour.

However, there is an alternative if you want machines guaranteed to work! All you have to do is order one.

The forum is misleading because we discuss Hobby Machines and second-hand industrial kit. Never about new industrial kit. There's a reason! Rule of thumb, such machines are between six and twenty times more expensive than a Hobby machine. £10,000 barely gets you in the game. Multi-axis CNC Machine Centres are the acme of modern machining and they can easily cost a couple of million.

With one exception I don't know of anyone on the forum who has coughed up for a new non-hobby machine. Machines of this class could be Western, but they're made in South America, Russia, and Asia.

Best to stay real about hobby machines. For you are they fit for purpose and value for money? The answer depends on your needs. For me as a hobbist the answer is a clear yes. If I used machines to make a living the answer would be 'no', because time is money, and I wouldn't want to waste it on a hobby machines unable to do long hours flat-out with reliable precision. As it is, I do far more thinking than cutting, and it doesn't matter that I waste time driving machines carefully within their limitations.

I'm a little suspicious of chaps who demanding top-quality machines because they don't report doing lots of fast precision work. Rather, most of us potter along at a rate that would give a foreman apoplexy, producing only moderately accurate stuff. Slow, old-fashioned fun that's very satisfying, but far from busy tool-room standards, and only ordinary equipment is needed. It's also apparent that some owners are very happy with good-name equipment despite their machine being worn, far from 'as new' condition. It's great because they think it is!

Whatever floats your boat. But don't buy a clapped out Myford expecting it to be better than a new next size up Chinese hobby lathe, and don't buy a Hobby lathe expecting a Dean Smith & Grace.

The acid test, can you tell the difference between a part made on a Chinese Hobby Mill and the same part made on a Bridgeport? What exactly would be different and does it matter to you?

Dave

Steve,

So that no one gets confused, Jason was saying that Hoppers You Tube video - china press is from 2007.

The SIEG video to which Jason linked, from this page is from around 2018.

Ketan at ARC.

Eventually, we all profited from the expertise of an American Quality expert, Deeming. But Japan got their first.

Someone said that the sour taste of low quality lasts longer than the sweet taste of low price.

We are all different.

What suits one does not suit another. A clockmaker does not need a lathe with a 500 mm swing any more than a locomotive restorer could manage with a Zyto.

Some want to "plug and Play", another may get a lot of satisfaction from refurbishing an old, worn machine.

I would, if I had the facilities, the confidence, and the skill; which I do not. It would be superb to regrind the bed, make new gears, and a new mandrel, for a lathe and then to set it up. After a lifetime in industry, not as a machinist, I hope that I know my limitations. Maybe overcautious. But I don't want to start on a machine and, through ignorance and lack of skill, render it less accurate than when I started, That would be a short cut to disillusionment.

We are mostly hobbyists on here. If you enjoy the intellectual exercise of working out the change gears for a particular thread, carry on. If you don't maybe a machine with a Norton box suits your purposes better.

Producing parts for interchangeability requires working to a tolerance.

Maybe we should use that in our comments to each other on here. We are not right all the time about everything! There is a lot of collective knowledge on the Forum, let us not disregard it in our own self regard

Howard.

.

Well said, Howard

Any decent forum thrives upon collective knowledge

MichaelG.

Yes I watched both of them. The later one shows a very clean modern environment. I never imagined it to be like that at all. But surely there must be some factories that are not up to that spec. Or are they all as good now. I live & learn.

Steve.

Ketan please check that link. I was just on the seig site & Bitdefender brought this up.

We blocked this dangerous page for your protection: http://www.siegind.com/Application/Home/View/demo_ximate/js/js.js Threat name: JS:Trojan.Cryxos.2702 Dangerous pages attempt to install software that can harm the device, gather personal information or operate without your consent.

Steve.

Hi Steve,

I think you have brought this up before on another thread. The page worked fine for most, and not for some.

I believe the conclusion there was that one antivirus software would behave differently from another.

Just don't open the page if you are not happy.

Ketan at ARC.

Yes it has happened before. I was on the site a while before that came up. Anyway no harm done.

Steve.