injector problems still

Thank you Julian it came this afternoon going to fit it to run next Wed.

Wish i had not put my back out yesterday can't wait to try it out.

Ron

Well thanks to Julian Atkins got a working injector each and every time it picks up cleanly so why don't my other new injectors work i have one from reeves 2000 one from Blackgates and one from leeds show my friend bought for me.

Not one works properly but fitted this and it works perfect such a releif.

Looking forward to a good run soon.

https://youtu.be/xX708l6s9hs

For those of you who have followed the long saga with Ron's 5"g LMS 'Black Five' on here I can only commiserate with him that he has been very very unlucky with commercial products he has bought from some of our commercial suppliers in the UK.

If these commercial concerns read these posts then I hope they take note.

I dont know where they buy their stuff from these days.

Ron bought a batch of check valves from a very well known commercial supplier to the ME market. On test in my workshop none of them seated, and they were very poorly made and designed.

One of Ron's commercially bought injectors was full of swarf obstructing the cones from when the injector was made - nothing to do with Ron.

I have recently repaired for a friend 2 Gordon Chiverton injectors of small 12 oz per min size. On one, the delivery cone abutted the combining cone with no gap, and on the other there was a blob of silver solder on the check valve seat preventing the injector check valve ball from seating at all. Both were sold by Polly Eng. Neither would work as made.

A new delivery cone was made for one, and a new seat made for the other for the injector internal check valve.

The above injectors were bought by a highly experienced model engineer from Polly, who also has considerable fullsize experience of driving locos.

So it is not just Ron who has had these problems.

I make all my own fiddly bits so am somewhat detached from what goes on in the commercial suppliers these days, but the above examples really ought to show that our commercial suppliers need to reconsider what they are buying and from whom.

The only commercial injectors I will recommend are those made by Len Steel for Paviersteam. I have no connection at all with Len or Paul Pavier, and usual disclaimer.

Cheers,

Julian

Quite a saga...

Thanks for sharing chaps

Having purchased injectors from all parties mentioned, I have to put my hand up and say they have all worked without complaint and that has been the experience of a lot of my friends in the hobby.

My personal view is that injectors are often treated as a fit and forget item ( and clack valves for that matter ). I clean my injectors after every run, normally with compressed air and then a quick dip in white vinegar every 6 weeks or so during the peak of the running season to clean up any scale on the cones.

Poor installation of injectors is often the root cause of peoples woes, poor pipework, air leaks on the water feed , no filters on the water feed and if there are filters , when were they last cleaned out?

When you look at the price we pay for these fittings and compare that to the amount of effort, skill and tooling required to produce a similar item in your workshop it's not a bad deal , will they have quality issues from time to time? of course they will and when they do encounter problems we ask them to deal with them promptly.

I am not associated with any of the suppliers mentioned, I am a club boiler inspector so do see more than my fair share of problems with injectors.

Thank you Julian so much stress as i am a novice but if the Injectors had worked then why does the one from Julian work so well and not just once but every time. I has the same pipe work so if it did not work then i fitted julians then why does it work so well now. Surley as they cost so much that each should be tested after manifacture. I was ready to give up tottaly with Model engineering as so many times it failed. Yes as i bought from diffrent suppliers each time hoping to solve the problem was probably very unlucky. But they are not two six pence from woolworths and would at least expect them to work. Its easy to blame my Loco but have seen this problem so often but as a novice could not understand why i get the feeling they come from China sold very cheaply to supliers then sold at high profit where we become the frustrated loosers.

Ron

Ron

Glad to hear​ Julian's injector worked at least you now know your pipework and water supply is OK as I see it now I suggest your send them back to the supplier telling them they do not work, send them as I suggested to Terry Baxter ask him to check them out then send them back with his finding or just ask him to fix them ! don't see any point in you sourcing another and keeping to naff ones on the shelf good luck which ever way you decide to go

H

Hi yes I would but had them for some time always thinking it was me. Julian has one he is sorting for me I have to send him another he will sort for me.

I know once he has worked on them they will work properly I really don't want to go through the last few months been a nightmare.

I trust Julian and when he has time they will work properly.

Ron

When I bought the injectors for my locos (made by Bob Brampson) they came with a test certificate showing working range and delivery. I know it would cost extra to do this, but if you were set up to do a batch I don't think it would cost a great deal. Spending an extra few quid for something that has been tested is better than risking a lot of quids for scrap. Similarly with clacks and valves, I've had the same problems with leaking clacks and finished up making my own.

i ordered a d bit and will make my own seats with new Balls.

Hi I think now I could make my own Clack Valves but after seeing how Julian had done them for me I still have 7 more that would not seal.

As for injectors they are a work of heart and you have to be very clever to make them.

Julian seems to just take them in his stride such a clever Model Engineer.

Wish he lived nearer so want to meet him I owe him so much.

I to think all clacks and injectors safety valves should be a legal obligation for main dealers to have them checked before sale.

Ron

I have just given my 4CD a pre steam test steaming, I had injector problems at the back end of last season, and upon inspection yesterday I found the clack valve body full to the brim with black sludge, and the ball stuck in the middle of it. I cleaned all that out, confident I had found and solved the problem, soaked the injector in malt vinegar overnight, reassembled it all and when I tried it today no joy at all. I had an even closer look at the injector, and took it apart, and found a slug of silicone sealant in the centre hole. Once that was removed it worked fine. I note that most soak their injector in white vinegar instead of malt vinegar, I imagine there is a reason perhaps someone could tell me what it is.

Thanks, Chris Gunn

> as a novice could not understand why i get the feeling they come from China sold very cheaply to supliers then sold at high profit where we become the frustrated loosers.

Ron, I don't think anyone in China is exporting boiler injectors to the UK, and it isn't fair to label anything that doesn't work as Chinese.

Let's face it, it IS possible for things that fail QC to be made in the UK and they should be returned for replacement or refund BEFORE a judgement is made on the supplier in any case.

Neil

Mine had silver solder blob in also one cone was very loose.

Luckily Julian is making me a new cone don't know how so tiny.

Something I could never do my Loco has only Ran 4 times since finishing it injectors are all new so frustrating

Ron

One supplier told me they came in batches from China the problem is you buy them ready to fit but then it's months later before fitting and trying Neil.

I still think who ever sells them should test them.

Ron

Keep at it Ron, you've come too far to think of giving up. I imagine everone on here is rooting for you so, best of everything.

Brian

Thank you Brian

Ron

There's nothing new under the sun. Injectors feature rather often in old copies of Model Engineer. Mostly people having trouble getting them to function, occasional discussion about design, and in the 60's a row about about how they work at all.

However, it wasn't until today that I found that a faulty full-size injector had caused a serious accident. Wikipedia's account of the Ais Gill 1913 railcrash includes this:

"While the driver was out of the cab, the fireman was having difficulty getting an injector to work and the boiler water level was dropping. When the driver returned, both men worked on the injector, and eventually restarted it. While they were distracted by the problem, their train had passed all the signals at the Mallerstang signal box, which were at danger. The crew also missed a red lantern being waved from the signal box by the Mallerstang signalman, and another being waved by the guard of the first train. Shortly after, they looked up from their distractions to see the first train stalled in front of them only a few yards away, and far too late to stop."

Well done again Ron and Julian. It could have been much worse!

Dave

Wow that's interesting thank you I wish my father was still here I remember him grumbling about injectors and the problems.

I think most was caused by drivers setting in different ways.

He worked for BR 42 years

Thank you Dave

Hi Dave,

There is no excuse for a miniature injector not to work.

There is considerable other comment on the Ais Gill Disaster in more recent times due to the Midland engine having a new boiler with a higher boiler pressure that the original injectors were not designed for, and could not cope with.

So far as miniature injector design is concerned the details of manufacture and points to note are well documented. DAG Brown's book is the bible on such matters and is available by TEE publishing.

That many of the commercial examples now flogged by the trade do not comply with these fundamental principles is a matter of considerable concern.

My old very close friend and mentor Arthur Grimmett made over 3,000 injectors for Reeves and Kennions copying the Linden injectors. They were all tested before onward transmission to the retailers, and were 100% reliable. We are talking about the mid 1950s to 1983. John Cashmore made excellent commercial injectors as did Gordon Chiverton until a few years ago.

I have also heard rumours of Chinese products. When you have loose steam cones and delivery cones simply fall out of commercial injectors supplied by the trade these days, one really must question what is being peddled by the ME suppliers and where it has come from.

I appreciate that Neil must defend his advertisers in his magazine, but this is no excuse for shoddy goods passed off as in the way they are described in those ME supplier's literature etc.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 02/03/2017 23:50:03

I find them frustrating too. The problem is there is so much that can be wrong - the pipe work, water valves, clack valves, cones - positioning or gunked up, water temperature, pressure range, the list just goes on. It's a wonder the damned things ever work. During the summer months down under its even worse and sometimes if you don't put ice in your tender you're out of luck. Then of course they all have different threads for the connections! I have a pair from somewhere and even the bloke in the club who made a living building and fixing locos didn't have a tap or die they'd match.

My club really frowns upon axle pumps so we all run two injectors. I get the feeling on many locos only one of them works reliably and gets used all the time with the other one only used in emergencies when the 'good' one decides to play up. Way too much of my driving time is spent watching the injector overflow and fiddling with water and steam valves trying to keep water in the boiler.

I can't say I'd blame anyone for fitting either an axle pump or an electric pump as a way of getting water in their boiler, especially with a bypass so you could have a chance at setting it to keep a decent water level most of the time.

It might be a good project to have a testing setup of some sort with a boiler, water tank, and just enough pipe work to test the rotten things.

It seems unless you can make them yourself you'll probably fall foul of them at some point.