Clive Foster | 26/09/2010 12:11:06 |
3630 forum posts 128 photos | John
I'm glad you think that will be helpful.
Of course its possible that your jig uses a combination of pivot angle and drill angle to get the required extra grind depth. If I recall things correctly the angle of drill edge rotation from the vertical used by the Picador type and the pivot angle of the General type are both about 15 degrees. I measured them a few years back but can't find the results, somewhere lost in computer space. I guess a combination of around 7.5° each should work and has some point positional advantages relative to the grinding wheel.
Worst point is that the grind is damnably sensitive to drill point projection. The further the point projects the greater the "cone" radius, the smaller the clearance angle and the less the geometrical increase in depth with swing angle. It takes very little extra projection to destroy the geometry. The standard design is barely able to cope with the small projection possible at the bottom end of the range. Ages back I looked into creating an offset pivot position to allow a bit more projection, say 50 thou or so but decided it was too much work for something I didn't really understand. Plan was to fit an offset end to the pivot pin, might have done it if the pin had been screwed in rather than cast in.
I suspect the American Delta and Atlas types with their horizontal pivot pins do operate with a little more drill projection. These more complex versions seem a bit more effectively engineered but apparently are too costly for the market.
Clive |
John Olsen | 27/09/2010 01:41:36 |
1294 forum posts 108 photos 1 articles | I have used a rather "cheap and cheerful" die cast one with quite good sucess, it is better than I could do by eye for sure. Anything below about 5mm does get a bit small for it. Some of the guys locally have built one of the published designs, with good results, n\but I;m not sure which it is. They would be better than mine, especially at the smaller end of the range. I inherited a lot of drills that my Dad had sharpened by eye, and he had a lot of practice at it. These would be typically larger drills, 3/8" and up, and even the cheap jig can improve on the way they cut. regards John |
Michael Cox 1 | 27/09/2010 08:14:14 |
555 forum posts 27 photos | Small drills (<6 mm) are relatively cheap that it is hardly worth the effort of regrinding them. On the other hand larger drills rapidly become more expensive with increasing size and these are relatively easy to resharpen using the cheap swing sharpeners and these are definitely worth re sharpening.
Mike |
Eric Lougheed | 27/09/2010 10:57:16 |
23 forum posts | Clive's narrative is most helpful - especially the conclusion at '4': I shall now try 'leaning back a little' on my el cheapo jig. Incidentally I've used that to sharpen 20mm drills - setting the rotation of the drill by eye.
Eric L |
John Shepherd | 27/09/2010 17:43:14 |
222 forum posts 7 photos | Armed with a bit of extra knowledge thanks to Clive I took my cheap swing jig out of the scrap bin and spent an hour trying various combinations of drill projection and lip angle and no way could I get a satisfactory clearance angle - whatever I did it was always too large.
I was just about to give up when I noticed that the v grove for the drill is offset from the pivot by about 4mm to the right (looking from the back).
By packing the joint between the main body and the pivot to bring the centre of the pivot and the bottom of the V in line I found I could get something like the proper geometry by rotating the lip about 10 deg from vertical and with the recommended 1/2 dia projection.
Incidentally, the base of the jig is angled forward by about 7.5 deg as Clive mentioned and it looks as if this has not been taken into account when calibrating the drill point angle because when set to 59 deg it is out by about that amount.
It would be interesting to hear from anyone with the original Picador or any other variant if the v is in line with the pivot. (BTW my jig was from Machine Mart but Im sure it is simiar to those from other suppliers)
My jig will be going back in the bin but I am now thinking of making my own clone based on what I have found. Who knows perhaps an article for MEW? |
John Stevenson | 28/09/2010 00:19:09 |
![]() 5068 forum posts 3 photos | What would be nice is if someone did a copy of the Christen 03 -10 drill grinder as an article These grind from 0.3mm to 6.35 mm but can be adapted to 10mm capacity, they only grind 4 facet but can thin. Are you sitting down ? These cost about £9,000 and they fit in a shoe box, they still make them so there must be a demand for them. I have one and use it all the while. I make some parts that have literally 1,000's of holes in them from 2.5mm to 3mm and none of the off the shelf drill will stand up to this work. I buy good quality Guhring drills and grind them from new into 4 facet drills using the inbuilt microscope. An off the shelf drill will do about 700 holes before the web starts to break down, same drill reground to 4 facet will do 2,800. It's not about saving the cost of a drill, it's about wasting a part if the drill breaks and the lost time. John S. |
Tony Jeffree | 21/10/2010 15:07:27 |
![]() 569 forum posts 20 photos | Posted by John Shepherd 1 on 24/09/2010 09:25:54: Andrew Thanks Judging from the comments in the link, that looks like option 1 out then - I am not totally surprised. I used to own a Drill Doctor - unfortunately, its bedside manner left a lot to be desired. Admittedly I bought mine s/h, but it was in decent condition & had the instructional video to show you how easy it is, but I could never persuade it to give even acceptable results let alone good results. It sat on my bench taking up space for a couple of years before it went back on Ebay. I'm currently building a Worden; will see if the drill sharpening jig for that is up to snuff. Regards, Tony |
Axel | 21/10/2010 19:21:12 |
126 forum posts 1 photos | Sparey´s The amateurs lathe has a good chapter on drills. |
Niloch | 22/10/2010 17:13:37 |
371 forum posts | What about this? |
Tony Jeffree | 22/10/2010 17:50:07 |
![]() 569 forum posts 20 photos | Posted by Niloch on 22/10/2010 17:13:37: What about this? Looks good, but ~ 175 squid & I believe it is designed to fit a Tormek grinder - there's reference in the Q&A about the grinding being water cooled. No doubt you could cobble it onto something else though. Not a lot there that you couldn't build yourself, of course, including the nifty one-size-fits-all drill clamp. Regards, Tony |
chris stephens | 22/10/2010 17:50:45 |
1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Niloch,
Saw an advert for one of those a few weeks ago, have you seen the price?
![]() chriStephens |
John Shepherd | 22/10/2010 19:04:19 |
222 forum posts 7 photos | Saw this in my search for drill sharpeners but I have already got 4 a facet jig that works reasonbly well thanks to a design by Harold Hall.
Leaning toward a Potts or similar for conventional sharpening but still to make up my mind.
Thanks for all the replies and if anyone has anything to add about the Potts I would be interested.
John Shepherd |
Clive Foster | 22/10/2010 22:45:40 |
3630 forum posts 128 photos | I'm sorry that John hasn't been able to report complete success.
Looks like I shall have to have a rummage for the analysis on drill points and swing jigs I started ages back to see if it can be made "ordinary guy friendly" with some numbers and plots to show what's going on. My recollection is that qualitatively its clear what happens but putting numbers in and comparing results to the real thing is less than easy. However in the intervening couple of decades some ideas for different approaches have surfaced so, once I get rid of this stinkin cold, we shall see if anything publishable can be produced. Given the number of swinging jig designs that exist and can be made to work by dint of sufficient effort the basic principle clearly isn't rocket science. But given that every design seems to cause problems for even the most instruction diligent users it looks as if the geometrical analysis has been less than exhaustive.
Despite the impressions given in certain quarters four facets aren't the be-all and end all either. Although very effective in machine guided situations they tend to be unstable in hand held use. Think of a masonry drill. These are basically 4 facet geometry but wander all over the shop given half a chance. Functionally 4 facets are spade drills. Even on an industrial scale 4 facets are easier so cone points wouldn't be standard without good reason.
Clive |
Andrew Johnston | 22/10/2010 22:56:40 |
![]() 7061 forum posts 719 photos | Hmmmm, the Tormek looks interesting, but it's not cheap. Does anybody have experience of using one of these devices? Regards, Andrew |
Billy Mills | 24/10/2010 15:26:51 |
377 forum posts | The Tormek jig and their grinderwould take you into £400 region depending on the grinder chosen. That is a lot of drills. Having said that, I am a great fan of Tormek, their slow wet grinder is the fastest way of getting brilliantly sharp edges on edge tools time and time again. The grinder is a large wide stone wheel running around 90-120 rpm, the stone is immersed in a water bath at the botom. The bare stone is about 220 grit but with a re-grading stone you can convert the grade to 1000 grit. There is a round bar mounted parallel with the stone axis along which all of the jigs are mounted so it is easy to remount a tool for resharpening. The stone is dressed with a diamond tool referenced to the bar. All of the jigs from Tormek are very well designed and easy to use alloy castings while their use is described in a book and DVD with current updates on the website! The system includes leather honing wheels as well. Jet make simular parts at lower prices. Don't have the drill jig but can say that wet grinding is very effective and completly avoids the risk of destroying edge temper. The other key detail is that the edges have much greater smoothness than from a 36 or 60 grit dry wheel so cut with less force and better surface finish. Regards, Alan |
Billy Mills | 24/10/2010 21:44:55 |
377 forum posts | Had a look for John's Christen machine, found the spares and operating instructions at :- www.christendrillgrinder.com/manualNOV2009.pdf. It is not vastly more complex than many T & C grinders but has a 20x microscope for aligning the drill. The operating instructions and the parts drawings might give the keen all they need! One of the interesting details is that this is a 0.5-6mm drill sharpner i.e. it works in the range where the simpler adaptors fall off. But £9,000 buys you a lifetime supply of drills and some! Regards, Alan. |
Chris Kelland | 06/11/2010 18:41:38 |
10 forum posts | Interesting. It seems that the Potts drill grinding jig is based on an article by L. A. Van Royen which appeared in the Model Engineer dated 14 August 1913. Fast forward to August 2008 and Harold Hall wrote in MEW on sharpening twist drills and mentioned the Reliance drill grinding jig which is very similar to the Potts. From his article it seems that the modern (cheap) drill grinding jig works in a similar way. Ian Bradley's book on The Grinding Machine has further information on swing grinding jigs, the Patts and also one by Van Royen. Following Harold Halls description in another article I have used an off hand grinder with a cup wheel and enlarged safety guard in conjunction with a cheap drill grinding jig and get quite satisfactory results. I feel that the secret is to get the drill projection correct in relation to the diameter of the drill. I feel this method is viable once a little practice with old drills has taken place. For drills below 1/8 inch I use a butterfly jig for sharpening. Regards, Chris. |
chris stephens | 06/11/2010 20:35:14 |
1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Chris,
The Reliance jig has little or no similarity to the Potts, Van Royen or Duplex one. It is much more akin to the Picador or one of its cheap imported copies. The three mentioned all have a means of measuring the drill diameter, which automatically adjusts the grind to suit. The Reliance has no such feature, but despite this can be made to work by measuring the drill, multiplying by a factor of either 3 or 5 (sorry cant remember which its been long time since I used mine and i seem to remember the instructions were wrong anyhow) and adjusting to projection to suit.
The big draw back of the Reliance is that you need to align the cutting lip with a scribed line on the jig, this is not always easy if your eyesight is below par, as the distance between the two can be relatively large.
Hope this clarifies things.
chriStephens
|
Paul Boscott | 07/11/2010 09:14:38 |
![]() 99 forum posts 21 photos | This is just an idea for discussion, as I have not yet the skill or understanding to complete the task The idea if possible would easily off set the cost of a machine if some of the prices mentioned are a viable option or at least help to justify the cost. As small CNC mills / lathes are now becoming more available in the Model Engineering environment would it be possible to use a small diamond wheel and write a G-code program to sharpen a drill. The size of the drill and the angle could be entered as data the datum could be the end of the drill the centre line of the quill or headstock is already known by the machine. As I am writing this I can see that the position of the flutes would also have to be located. Has anyone any further thoughts on this? Is already done? |
Howard Jones | 07/11/2010 12:50:17 |
70 forum posts 112 photos | the photo is my drill sharpening jig, one of my first model engineering projects at the suggestion of a maestro. there is a little V notch across the thing which locates the drill. you eyeball the angle of the drill usually by matching the existing sharpening. the whole thing is then just stroked along an oiled fine slipstone. it achieves absolutely regular drill ends. |
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