John Reese | 20/01/2019 19:08:49 |
1071 forum posts | Posted by vintage engineer on 20/01/2019 15:00:41:
It's caused by hydrogen embrittlement. A naughty trick foundries do on aluminium castings is to add zinc to bulk out the aluminium. This comes to light when you try to weld the crap!
Fraid not. It is lead contamination that causes the zinc rot. |
Neil Wyatt | 20/01/2019 19:17:01 |
19226 forum posts 749 photos 86 articles | Wikipedia has some interesting stuff on Zamak/Mazak it seems it's a range of metals developed specifically to avoid zincpest by using high purity zinc. Perhaps we do it a disservice it by classing it as standard 'monkey metal'? Neil |
Michael Gilligan | 20/01/2019 19:27:25 |
23121 forum posts 1360 photos | Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/01/2019 19:17:01:
Perhaps we do it a disservice it by classing it as standard 'monkey metal'? . I am certain that 'we' do, Neil Just like with 'Loctite' ... sloppy usage, and 'viral' opinion-forming have ridden roughshod over the manufacturers' good efforts. MichaelG.
|
Vic | 20/01/2019 19:33:05 |
3453 forum posts 23 photos | These lightweight cast “alloys” don’t need to be old to be useless. I’ve had to replace quite a number of parts on my Record Power belt and disc sander due to material failure after only a couple of years. |
Chris Evans 6 | 20/01/2019 20:52:44 |
2156 forum posts | Neill, I have M10x1 taps here in Kings Bromley not far from you. If you want to PM me an address I can post to you. Chris. |
vintage engineer | 20/01/2019 23:09:45 |
293 forum posts 1 photos | It's in the atmosphere trapped in H2O
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/01/2019 15:48:37:
Posted by vintage engineer on 20/01/2019 15:00:41:
It's caused by hydrogen embrittlement. A naughty trick foundries do on aluminium castings is to add zinc to bulk out the aluminium. This comes to light when you try to weld the crap!
But where does the hydrogen come from?
|
Jeff Dayman | 21/01/2019 00:25:13 |
2356 forum posts 47 photos | Posted by John Reese on 20/01/2019 19:08:49:
Posted by vintage engineer on 20/01/2019 15:00:41:
It's caused by hydrogen embrittlement. A naughty trick foundries do on aluminium castings is to add zinc to bulk out the aluminium. This comes to light when you try to weld the crap!
Fraid not. It is lead contamination that causes the zinc rot. Hi John, Not challenging what you say, just searching for documentation. Have you any metallurgical documentation for the effect of lead in these expanding die castings? Seen a lot of them do the expanding / cracking thing, would like to know more about why. Seen lots of conflicting theories over the years about the cause (ie sulphur, lead , zinc, zinc carbide (?), zinc sulphate, ammonium nitrate, calcium sulphate, water, oil, copper, antimony, tin, list of impurities causing the issue goes on and on) but little science to go on. |
vintage engineer | 21/01/2019 08:57:46 |
293 forum posts 1 photos | Dixie Magnetos from America are notorious for failing due to hydrogen embrittlement. Because there is electricity passing through the body when the engine is running, any moisture gets gets split into oxygen and hydrogen. Most non critical aluminium castings on vintage cars contain large quantities of zinc. SU carbs are so bad you can only weld them with zinc based filler rods. |
SillyOldDuffer | 21/01/2019 10:28:02 |
10668 forum posts 2415 photos | Posted by Jeff Dayman on 21/01/2019 00:25:13:
Posted by John Reese on 20/01/2019 19:08:49:
Posted by vintage engineer on 20/01/2019 15:00:41:
It's caused by hydrogen embrittlement. A naughty trick foundries do on aluminium castings is to add zinc to bulk out the aluminium. This comes to light when you try to weld the crap!
Fraid not. It is lead contamination that causes the zinc rot. Hi John, Not challenging what you say, just searching for documentation. Have you any metallurgical documentation for the effect of lead in these expanding die castings? ... Always a problem laying hands on Mother Lode documentation because access is often via a University Library or has to be paid for! However the Wikipedia Zinc Rot Article references a Dutch NLR paper 'Corrosion-induced cracking of model train zinc-aluminium die castings', which is available on the Wayback Machine as a PDF. (It's in English.) Couple of quotes from the Report: 'The corrosion results from impurities in the metal, and requires the presence of moisture.' 'The problem needs thorough discussion because information available to the non-specialist, notably via the internet, often contains errors.' 'The origin of zinc die castings is a bit uncertain. Bierbaum (1923) mentions zinc-copper-aluminium die castings made as early as 1896, while Goodway (1985) and Gross (2003) state that the first commercial alloy was produced around 1907. By the early 1920s it was recognised that alloys based on the zinc-aluminium binary system were easy to cast and had good mechanical properties. At the same time, it became clear that the control of impurity elements was vital: small amounts of lead, cadmium and tin resulted in corrosion-induced cracking and swelling of the castings (Brauer and Pierce 1923).' 'Some alleviation of the corrosion problem was obtained by additions of copper to the impure binary alloys (Brauer and Pierce 1923), but its elimination was achieved only by the use of special high purity zinc (99.99%) and further additions of small amounts of magnesium (Goodway 1985; Gross 2003). These developments took place during 1926-1929, leading to introduction of the ZAMAK1 series of alloys, several of which are still in use today...' The NLP report lists 11 references, the most recent being 'Gross, D.K., 2003, Zinc Die Castings – The Importance of Alloy Chemistry, Die Casting Engineer, Vol. 47, No. 2, pp. 30-31.' The report goes into a lot more detail. I'd add the observation that Zinc occurs naturally in ores containing Lead and Cadmium and refining it isn't easy. As Die Casting is often done for cheapness, it is rather likely that the alloy used for limited-life items might not be the best. It's also possible that a die caster might not consistently maintain absolute cleanliness throughout a series of melts, and there's always a risk of a numpty cutting corners or even chucking incompatible scrap into the mix... Dave |
Tim Stevens | 21/01/2019 12:17:37 |
1779 forum posts 1 photos | If I can add to the 'embrittlement' idea: This effect is known mainly on high tensile steel, and is caused when electroplating (such as zinc). When the steel is put under tension, hydrogen (from the effect of electrolysis) trapped under the plating percolates along the crystal boundaries of the steel, causing serious weakness. Just like a single drop of water can loosen the cohesion of a sugar lump. If this effect happens in die-casting alloys in damp conditions, it may be because layers of different metals make tiny cells, generating small currents. This then creates the same sort of conditions as in steel. And the hydrogen comes from the water (even without electrolysis) as the metal - aluminium, zinc etc - reacts with moisture. This corrosion is called oxidation - the metal takes oxygen from water, and this leaves spare hydrogen ready to creep between the minute crystals. The real problem is that neither the makers of model cars, nor those who made carburettors, or dashboard knobs, had any idea that their products would be treasured one hundred years later. The same sorts of effects will destroy our favourite plastics, soon enough, don't you worry. Cheers, Tim |
Andrew Johnston | 21/01/2019 12:24:07 |
7061 forum posts 719 photos | Posted by Tim Stevens on 21/01/2019 12:17:37:
The same sorts of effects will destroy our favourite plastics, soon enough, don't you worry. So why are the envirofascists getting hot under the collar about plastics in the environment? Andrew |
Tim Stevens | 21/01/2019 12:46:07 |
1779 forum posts 1 photos | Andrew - because when plastics fall apart they do not dissolve completely, but remain as tiny particles and shreds. The plastic is made by polymerisation - joining together long strings of molecules. These bonds are not always permanent, and the base molecules remain, cluttering the sea floor and the insides of critters, including you and me. The main cause of failure for many plastics is ultra-violet radiation, but once the plastic gets into the sea, the radiation does not penetrate, so small un-expired bits are left, and we, eventually, eat them. Enjoy your lunch ... Cheers, Tim |
Neil Wyatt | 21/01/2019 14:40:37 |
19226 forum posts 749 photos 86 articles | Posted by Chris Evans 6 on 20/01/2019 20:52:44:
Neill, I have M10x1 taps here in Kings Bromley not far from you. If you want to PM me an address I can post to you. Chris. Thanks Chris Turns out it is M9x1! I'm going to make a tap as it will be a nice 'short' for MEW. Neil |
Neil Wyatt | 21/01/2019 14:48:42 |
19226 forum posts 749 photos 86 articles | To quote further from the reference Dave found, it seems moisture is essential, impurities make it worse, perhaps by causing evolution of hydrogen: • Corrosion proceeds from the surface inwards, is intercrystalline, and attacks the β |
vintage engineer | 21/01/2019 22:12:51 |
293 forum posts 1 photos | Thank you.
Posted by Tim Stevens on 21/01/2019 12:17:37:
If I can add to the 'embrittlement' idea: This effect is known mainly on high tensile steel, and is caused when electroplating (such as zinc). When the steel is put under tension, hydrogen (from the effect of electrolysis) trapped under the plating percolates along the crystal boundaries of the steel, causing serious weakness. Just like a single drop of water can loosen the cohesion of a sugar lump. If this effect happens in die-casting alloys in damp conditions, it may be because layers of different metals make tiny cells, generating small currents. This then creates the same sort of conditions as in steel. And the hydrogen comes from the water (even without electrolysis) as the metal - aluminium, zinc etc - reacts with moisture. This corrosion is called oxidation - the metal takes oxygen from water, and this leaves spare hydrogen ready to creep between the minute crystals. The real problem is that neither the makers of model cars, nor those who made carburettors, or dashboard knobs, had any idea that their products would be treasured one hundred years later. The same sorts of effects will destroy our favourite plastics, soon enough, don't you worry. Cheers, Tim
|
Please login to post a reply.
Want the latest issue of Model Engineer or Model Engineers' Workshop? Use our magazine locator links to find your nearest stockist!
Sign up to our newsletter and get a free digital issue.
You can unsubscribe at anytime. View our privacy policy at www.mortons.co.uk/privacy
You can contact us by phone, mail or email about the magazines including becoming a contributor, submitting reader's letters or making queries about articles. You can also get in touch about this website, advertising or other general issues.
Click THIS LINK for full contact details.
For subscription issues please see THIS LINK.