Live Steam Loco Questions

Stewart,

There have been some good replies on the technical aspects and capabilities and various sizes already given. One thing I haven't seen addressed so far is cost. Cost of materials and castings is also variable with size and probably the most costly item is the boiler, you need a lot more copper to make a 5" gauge express loco boiler than a G1 or G3 shunter. It also depends if you want to make the boiler or if you want to buy from a commercial boiler maker. Castings are also expensive from the commercial suppliers, but you can fabricate or machine from solid some items like horn blocks (you will find out what they are as you go along if you are not familiar with them) and even cylinders. For say a 5" gauge 060 tank engine if you buy a ready made boiler and all the castings and get your other materials from one of the metal stock holders you could easilly be looking at £3000 plus. However if you fabricate and make your own boiler and pick up material from skips you can trim the cost considerably. You also said assuming you have the equipment but you will still need I would wager various drills, reamers, taps and dies!

As has been said in other threads of similar vein it is important to choose a design that inspires you, you are looking at perhaps 2000 hours or more in the workshop, so it has to captivate your interest if it is to get finished! There are an awful lot of part finished models around! Do your research as you have been, find a design you like but try to keep it simple, a 3 cylinder Pacific as a first loco is a bit ambitious and go for it!

Lastly on machinery, there is an awful lot of guff written about lathes and mills, Basically it is true that a decent heavily built rigid machine is more capable at maximum metal removal. However, for the 'hobby' machines as long as you can fit it in, if you are careful you can machine it. I completed all the milling operations for the water pump of a 6" scale traction engine on a Chester micro mill! Granted I was limited to ten thou cuts and it took a while but it can be done.

Phil,

I know where you are coming from! It is not limited to this forum alone though, it's more common than you might think. People not reading an OP question correctly or where a specific question has been asked failing to answer it in a straightforward manner without suggesting some outlandish solution. Then there are the keyboard warriors that belittle and sometimes bully. There also seem to be individuals everywhere that feel compelled to contribute to a thread even though they have nothing useful to contribute to the subject outside of Aunty Maude once knew someone who could have answered this question. I read this forum regularly but seldom post, it's not too bad to be fair considering others I read but the subject matter is I also believe biased as you describe towards workshop machines and techniques rather than actual models. That said people have to be prepared to contribute, if no one is posting about models then there is nothing about models to read!

Paul.

Still nothing on cost of materials other than a comment on a commercial boiler!!

I cannot believe that those who work in such accurate dimensions & such rigid controls do not have at least an idea

Are you all deliberately blind to the cost or are you frightened SWMBO will find out?

If you do not know the cost do you have any idea how much you spend a week on the hobby ( perhaps you have a budget) & that might , when multiplied up over the building time of a model, give one some idea of what it cost. That might then include the all important cost of the additional tooling. Tooling, after all, must be a very big part for a new player. I certainly find it so.

I am building a small traction engine & as I come to a new component I find I have to stop because I do not have the material to make it or have B,,gered up the bit I had or tried to use the wrong bit & wasted time because I shuddered at the cost of the correct item.

It is really frustrating & may be what puts many off mid build & why there are so many part built projects about.If one knew & could plan at the start with greater accuracy there might be more finished models about.

Hi Stewart,

My advice would essentially be the same as that provided by Simon Collier - join a decent club and get involved.

The questions you posed are very broad.

If you ask a room full of model engineering club members the same questions you will probably get a different answer from each of them.

If you want to build a miniature loco to do a job of work and haul passengers rather than for display or just as an engineering construction exercise then you really do need to join a club.

Firstly you will need to run the loco somewhere when completed.

Secondly the condition of that club's track will have a bearing on what loco you choose to build - the obvious factors being whether ground level or raised track and the gradients.

Thirdly you may not like it! Operating a miniature loco requires a great deal of heavy lifting usually and a suitable car. You may find that leaning over a tender to get at the controls is uncomfortable. You may not like inhaling large quantities of smoke. You may not like all the mess and muck associated with running a miniature loco.

As for choice of loco and gauge, it is no secret on here that I would never suggest anyone build LBSC's Tich, and I would never advise anyone to build Martin Evans' 'Simplex'.

For a beginner I would suggest avoiding anything with a tapered barrel boiler and belpaire firebox, avoid anything with a combustion chamber, and avoid anything with piston valves. I also dislike sloping grates, marine type boilers, and anything with a long tender.

Certain well known designs have well known faults, and are best avoided unless you are prepared to depart from the drawings. Certain designs are not really suitable for a beginner and some are considered very poor.

So, I would stay clear of anything designed by Greenly or Jackson/Clarkson. I would stay clear of some of Keith Wilson's designs.

Also consider designs that have a construction series in ME/EIM/LLAS.

Have a good look at Don Young's designs (see Reeves website). Usual disclaimer.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 18/12/2017 08:47:32

Must admit, I don't really understand your concern Sam.

Surely part of the decision to build a particular design will include some research into the cost of castings and materials? Whether you build in Gauge 1 or 5" (or for a 3" Traction Engines) - there are normally suppliers associated with the various bits required that will be only too happy to quote you prices for castings, raw materials or finished parts. If money is short, then downsize your ambition (and scale) a bit - as Paul notes, a G3 "Shunter" will cost a lot less money than a 5" Pacific - and be easier and quicker to build too - by an order of magnitude or more I would think. But surely this is all part of the fun - deciding where your heart lies and making the decision to try to follow it (or perhaps) allowing your head to influence things a trifle...

As for 'tools' - buy them as you need them and if necessary, start with the best you can afford and trade up over time. It's going to take time to make what ever you decide to settle on, so the cost of many extras and accessories can also be spread over time. I've no idea what I've spent over the years but it's not been a concern really.

As for this Forum, I'm not sure what people expect sometimes. I don't view myself as an expert but I have been learning for quite a while now. I try to help where I can but I also try to keep quiet when I don't know the answers. As to the "real" experts 'leaving' this Forum, well the experts within my Society have probably never been here in the first place. One of my most knowledgeable & expert colleagues certainly has an email address but his wife reads any emails received back to him and he then dictates his replies to her for typing... I guess he grew up in a different world (and prefers to stay there).

Regards,

IanT

Sam,

If you read my post again you will see I quoted a rough figure of £3000, a bit difficult to be accurate when no specific design is being priced? As to finding you do not have the required material to hand as you progress through the build, with all due respect surely that is a planning issue? I am building a 6" scale traction engine and am constantly looking ahead, as one part is being worked on I am also looking at the next part to be done and aquiring the necessary. It was quite easy to put a budget against the final cost at the beginning, the cost of castings was published by the supplier in a list, with the drawings the cost for bronze for bearings, large section steel for rear axle and shafts etc was easy to price from the Internet. The cost for the boiler from a reputable boiler maker only took an email. If you want a more specific example I estimated the cost of boiler, castings, sundry material and additional tooling for the 6" Savage as £10k (it's quite a large engine being just short of 1000kg complete). I am about halfway through the build with all the major expenditure items like boiler, castings, bearing material, shafts and rubber tyres vulcanised to the wheels completed and am in round terms £2k in hand. The OP did state in his question on price "assuming all equipment is available" but I did qualify in my reply that may not include items like cutting tools. This hobby can be as expensive as you wish to make it! Maybe you would like to contribute what the costs have been for your engine rather than complain others are not being up front?

Paul.

Edited By Paul Kemp on 18/12/2017 12:10:23

Dave,

I think one useful idea is to create some FAQs (forgive me if they are already on here that I haven't spotted). We all know the common questions.

I think this could also apply to the question asked in this thread too i.e., the same point is raised over and over again e.g., is Tich big enough to pull an adult, which engines do work well - surely a league table of common designs can be knocked together from the wealth of experience that was here. The table might have all sorts of interesting points that a beginner might be interested in e.g., approximate cost range, weight of the finished engine, pulling power - xx number of adults etc. Yes some of these things would vary depending on build quality so I'm obviously talking about the average to good builds.

Creating the tables might actually help to tease one or two back and or at least enter the debate. When its done - post it and refer people to it.

The same type of thing could be done for the common workshop questions that appear over and over again.

Phil H

Hi all. I've been digesting the replies, and very good they are too. I must thank you all for taking the time and effort to reply, even if some have generated a little friction. It's a consequence of the media we use.

I'm lucky in that I have at my disposal a well equipped workshop belonging to my employer, (Fire Service) with such things as a plasma cutter, MIG welder, gas torch, sheet metal bender, pillar drill, grinders, big vices, anvil, and so on. Everything that is needed to maintain a large fleet of (sometimes aging) fire appliances. There is also an extensive scrap bin, with steel, aluminium, brass, and so on. Some of it is in the form of old equipment, but if one is willing to put in a bit of effort it is very good stuff. We are also surrounded by a plethora of small businesses only too happy to take on small machining jobs, and we have contractors that sell everything under the sun, from screws and bolts, to complex fittings for various gear, paint, tools, you name it.

I have a garage with a big workbench and a hefty vice and properly wired for power, and an upstairs room with a solid work table, vice and good light. I have a small but growing selection of hand tools and my little adept lathe.

So, the very basics are there, and I also have a local club with 3 1/2, 5" and 7 1/4 in gauge tracks. Like I said, I've yet to join, but I intend to visit in the new year, and peruse the facilities and members over a few brews and make my decision.

I have been looking at loco designs and the 'LBSC' designs are my favorite, which fits well with my love of Austerity era model making, and the tools of the era. I particularly love the 'Petrolea' the 'Rainhill', 'Canterbury Lamb', 'Juliet', don't ask me why, I think I just like small/older locos.

I have read the excellent Tabletop Machining book by the Sherline chap, and numerous books on milling, lathe work, and other fabrication techniques, as I am an avid reader. I am slowly building a small engineering library it seems.

I think it would maybe be best to wait until after my club visit before I pick a design, as they may tip the balance in favour of a particular type for a beginner, although the ultimate decision rests with me of course.

I am particularly determined to do this job with an older lathe, as I have no love of the chinese machines, and I want to experience what it was like to build such a model with the gear that was available to the average model engineer at the time, however hard that may be. That is the challenge. Even if this means rebuilding an older machine as a project in it's self with the aid of a club, as for me the equipment is just as important and beautiful as the models, which is part of the reason I'd rather avoid a new lathe. I just like the old stuff.

Sorry of this seems a rambling post, the morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet...

Stew.

I hesitate to give advice because we're all different, but I wonder if you are in danger of entering a Marathon before learning to walk?

A small locomotive will take about 1500 hours work and cost, say, £2500. The builder requires a substantial range of skills - planning work, interpreting drawings (containing errors & omissions), turning, drilling, boring, lapping and filing with good accuracy. Brazing, working with castings, steel, copper and other materials. Fitting and finishing. Quite a tall order when you remember that chaps did 7 year apprenticeships. Don't be surprised to make hundreds of mistakes while learning, pushing up the time, money and emotional costs, perhaps to breaking point.

You also want to use old-time techniques and tools. That's very creditable, but it will steepen your learning curve and everything will take longer. Be aware that many old techniques are time-wasters. For example, old-timers rarely owned a milling machine but using one will save you many hours of work. Likewise, old-timers mostly cut metal by hand, which is just tedious semi-skilled manual labour. My advice: buy a Chinese band-saw!

But my main suggestion is that you start small and spend a year or two developing skills before even thinking about selecting a loco. A small stationary engine like Stewart Hart's Pottymill will teach you a lot without breaking the bank. After you have it running on compressed air, making a boiler to steam it will teach you even more. I also found building Jan Ridder's Low Temperature Stirling to be highly educational in other ways - far more attention to reducing friction compared with a steam engine. Neither engine uses castings: one of the Stuart Kits would be a good way of learning about them.

The other big advantage of deliberately investing in learning is that actually using tools and materials puts you in a much better place when it comes to moving forward. You will have a much better understanding of your work-rate, skill-levels, tools, shortcomings and motivation. It might change your mind completely about tool preferences, what you want to build, austerity model-making, and much else. Or experience might confirm your interests and direction. It doesn't matter, my point is that naivety is far more likely to stuff you up than acquiring skills.

Whatever you do, enjoy it!

Dave

Good point Dave. I have a certain level of mechanical knowledge, but I am very much a beginner in terms of model engineering, and I am very happy to learn and be taught.

I spent my teen years restoring a selection of basket case motorbikes, did a YTS certificate in light engineering, where I learned to weld (Arc and MIG) along with a little brazing, did some casting of things in sand, lathe work, sheet metal fabrication etc, and then a few years later became a time served motor mechanic. Jump forward a decade and I then gained a commercial pilots licence (having sold all my snap-on tools to help fund it)...and learned about hydraulics, piston and jet engines and so on, so I have a basic understanding of engineering and mechanical principles, but nothing more than scratching the surface. I have a huge need to make things, anything, as I can't stand for my hands to be idle. I've always built models, and worked from plans, model aircraft, cars, trains, and so on, but now I feel the need to build a bigger boys toy, and a live steam loco would be amazing. I am a terrible tight-wad, and a lover of thrift and 'make do and mend' and like to spend my money very wisely, so I'm not going to jump into anything without thorough research. I'm 44 now and looking for a lifetime hobby, so it needs to be right for me. At the moment I've not spent more than a few quid on books and ME magazines and basic but good quality hand tools, pretty much what an apprentice machinist would have, but sooner or later I will have to decide on a project. Thank you all once again for your advice.

PS I see that ME has just started a series on making a vertical boiler. Good place to start?

Good morning Stewart

I can confirm the hobby does somewhat take over. I started building my first locomotive, a LBSC Juliet when I was sixteen and I'm still building locomotives almost sixty years later! I started out on an ex lease lend Atlas lathe with a vertical slide for milling and a 1/4" capacity drill press, I really had nothing more than that. A few of my father drills and I remember buying my first 6BA tap and die from Aird's in Brighton. I suppose the rest is history.

Like yourself I read probably everyhing there is to read from the old chap, insperational. I wouldn't like to suggest a first locomoptive, what I would say have a look on youtube at the Littlelec competitions, you will get some idea of the power of the smaller designs.

To join a club is essential, I would suggest you have a look at the websites of the Southern Federation , Northern association and the Midlands association, all of which carry information of the various chubs in your area.]

Remember, the first time you attack a piece of metal with a hacksaw, you're no longer a beginner, you're in there with the rest of us!

Yours, still building,

Bob

Yes the boiler that has just started to be featured in the mag would be a good practice piece, I have seen a few people take on a loco or traction engine as their first boiler and ended up with a large pile of unusable copper!

Just be a bit aware that a vertical boiler and a locomotive boiler are two completely different 'beasts' to make.

The latter will punish you if more than one step of construction is made 'out-of-sequence' and needs careful selection of silver solder grades at each stage too.

Personally, I think A Farmers book is a ' must read' first. From Abe, not Ebay.