Crap vee blocks and "Oxford Precision"?

Quote Michael W "Why do factories of all places shuffle around with the branding?"

For the same reason that TESCO sell foodstuffs branded with the names of non-existent farms. To increase sales.

Jason B's Links show us that these are all distribution companies, their expertise lies in the sourcing of the product, not its manufacture.

Choochoo-baloo I don't really understand why you're worried. As you've got a surface plate you can check whatever V-blocks you buy. IF they're not to specification and you bought them from a reputable UK supplier you can send them back.

Jumping to conclusions about the quality of a product depending on where in the world it was made is illogical. If you read industrial history you will find that assumptions of quality based on Nationality always been dubious. Birmingham was once infamous for churning out cheap nasty tat even though many seriously good firms were also located there. Nowadays it's even more difficult to generalise. Manufacturing and services are much more globalised. Design, manufacture, sales, tax, management, ownership etc. can all be based in different countries. What's manufactured by anybody will be aimed at a market: as Ketan remarks this has space for the good, the bad and the ugly.

Rather than worrying about country of origin, you're better off buying by specification and checking it. As this is liable to be costly and time consuming, buying by reputation is quicker, though you always need to confirm that a reputation is still justified. A brand-name is nowhere near as solid as a reputation: when a company goes out of business their brand-names are usually sold to the highest bidder. I always treat brand-names with suspicion.

My V-Blocks are fine for what I use them for. I've no idea where they were made.

One thing about the methodology used in the 'crap' video worried me. The diameter of the dowel is small in comparison with the size of the V block. The chap may have been measuring the accuracy of the notch at the bottom rather than the accuracy of the V surfaces. I wish he'd used something bigger: Jason's test with the shank of an HSS cutter is much more convincing.

I'm quite intrigued to know what will be made in the Choochoo-balloo workshop. Not a criticism, but chaps new to metalwork don't normally start at the precision end of the hobby: it's expensive. If the plan is to own 'quality' tools for pleasure rather than profit, that's fine by me.

Dave

At one point, 90% of the world's needle production was made in Redditch.

Despite this concentration of expertise at least 40% of the World's below-average needles were made in Redditch!

Neil

Hi Bandersnatch,

Dont feel too bad about your vee blocks,perhaps they were intended to be used along with my rotary table. They would get on well together,being so well matched ! Perhaps the errors in one would cancel out the errors in the other. Dont throw out the box they came in,the cardboard might come in handy for packing them up here and there to get them level [just a thought ]

I doubt if they were just two that managed to slip through the net,there are so many posts about this kind of crap that the net would need to have huge holes in it. I believe that sometimes,not often, a good item manages to get through. But,make no mistake,a great deal of rubbish is still "Made in England" ,as I know to my cost.

I've got a lovely pair of Mitutoyo vee blocks that I bought for £15 from my favourite market stall, secondn hand. Good as they are, they have almost never been used! So, look for s/h quality tooling, much cheaper and generally better, especially for things like this that are almost never used and so don't wear out!

Having been near as dammit penniless most of my life (or at least not having money to spare on luxuries for a hobby), I always had to take the path of trying to make do with what I had, or make something better in order to pursue my interests.

Looking at old copies of ME and similar mags, there was often emphasis on developing your own equipment, or devising alternative ways to achieve satisfactory results. It is surely a good thing that companies such as ARC do their best to provide equipment and tools which at one time could not be had for any amount of money - if you don't like what is offered, don't buy it - don't buy it then moan about it. You have always got the alternatives outlined above and in other posts in this thread.

I don't feel bad at all about my v-blocks, Larry. I'm quite happy with them in fact.

Perhaps you were looking for Choochoo-baloo?

Bear in mind that Cromwell Tools supply Industry, ( And their prices tend be Industrial!) so if they sold rubbish, professional customers would soon vanish. My employers (before I retired, and now) have Cromwell as one of their many suppliers. As one of the world's largest manufacturers of their product, cannot believe that they would buy rubbish for long. Any doubts over dimensions and the item would soon be in a temperature and humidity controlled Standards and Calibration Room, awaiting a pretty searching check.

Have never had reason to return or criticise any of the measuring equipment or tools that I have bought from them, which is more than can be said of Machine Mart. (Would you replace in the showcase a vernier just returned by a customer for a 0.004" difference between Inside and Outside jaws?)

Have never worked for, or had any connection with Cromwell, other than as a user or customer.

Howard

Even if what you bought was not what was offered?

The OP clearly stated "supposedly ground precision vee blocks" and "were not ground on the vee surfaces"

I'd sure as heck moan under those circumstances. If, on the other hand they had been offered as "unground, dimensionally inferior v-blocks" and were purchased as such, then you would, indeed, have a point.

(... and lets be quite clear. The OP only mentioned ARC as a means to identify the type of v-block. Not that they actually supplied this kind of carp )

1. What is silly or thoughtless about questioning good and poor quality tooling? I did not realise it was a taboo subject.

2. Please do not put words into my mouth RE Arc the company. The reality is that Warco, Clarke, Axminster etc. all get their same manufacturing from the same few factories (source: Axminster employee). Thus it's valid to question the quality of unbranded tooling.

Thanks for the constructive reply Dave. Yes I'm well aware of the largely globalised nature of modern manufacturing. Having had bad experience with far eastern tooling before, and then watching the aforementioned video, I decided to seek the wisdom of fellow members.

Yes the 'quality tooling for pleasure' is indeed a motivator for me!!

Thanks. Useful information Howard. That Machine Mart anecdote is uncomfortably familiar!

I have recently bought several items from ARC, one of the items being a standard machine vice which has been machined to a finish, as I intended this vice to be used mainly for first or rough cutting I didn't buy the dearest, in fact it was only a mid-priced item.

Once unpacked I removed the swivell base as I have no need for it (yet) and mounted the vice to my mill. My only negative observation was the bolts and washers supplied to fit it are not the best, so i substituted them.

Once fitted I dialled it up to see where I was going to have errors or problems, I couldn't belive how accurate it was. 1 thou difference between the jaw hieght when opened up to 75mm (sorry for mixing units, 3". Overall the quality and finish far surpassed my expectations at the price I paid.

Other than being a repeat customer I have no connection with 'ARC' and maybe I have just been lucky, but I now have a feeling that the guys at ARC are a bit fussy about what they push out to customers in order to maintain their credibility. I will certainly continue to buy with confidence from them and will of course let them know first, if I do find something is not as it should be.

Howard and ChooChoo you may want to read Ketan's post again particularly the second paragraph

That's only true with respect to some products, the more complex ones like machine tools, vertical slides and rotary tables. However even with these one factory often produces a wide range of specifications (take mini-lathes for example) and this can include fit and finish. Some of the very cheap imports you see can be the machines rejected for supply to established customers.

For general tooling (especially that used by industry or in huge quantities) like cutters, v-blocks, calipers, drills there are innumerable suppliers and a huge range in quality. Even a single distributor may source from different suppliers over time.

Neil

I would like to clarify. Sourcing is a lot more complex based on many factors, to include country of origin, as well as relationships. There are some overlaps with certain products from certain factories among all the suppliers, but for a good percentage of products, the sourcing is well spread geographically throughout China, by all importers, rather than limited to a few factories only. Also, various grades of products are available from the same factory, based on what the importer wishes to pay, as well as what relationship the importer has with the said factory.

For India, the focus is based more in and around Delhi, and heading towards the Punjab. The overlap of product between importers is far greater from this origin, especially for what you see in the hobby market. However, here the quality is far more open to question. With exception to Zither chucks (for whom we have a high level of trust), we employ the services of a company based in Delhi, to do all the buying from specific manufacturers, check, pack and supply product to our requirement. This operation has been developed by us over two years. That part of the journey has been very difficult. There is a rejection rate picked-up at origin, with which neither of us are happy with, but the the inspection process works for us. Initially, ALL Indian manufacturers were peed off with us, but they still agreed to play, as we are paying higher, for a specific specification which they agreed to pre-purchase. Our purchase costing from this region is higher than many of our competitors, but it is cheaper to deal with rejection at origin, than having to deal with problems once the goods are in the U.K..

So, you raise a valid question ChooChoo. As a beginner?.. you dont know ARC from Adam before you buy. Reading various comments on this thread, I think the general concern is one about how you raised the question - i.e. Thread Title: Crapy Vee blocks... followed by the opening comment... the unbranded far eastern type from Arc ... and a YouTube video of unknown origin ... all together could possibly give the impression with one sweaping 'thought' (rightly or wrongly) that all far eastern stuff - Indian or Chinese could be crap. I am sure that it was your intention to ask about the quality of Far Eastern stuff, but it has come across in a negative way.

Sellers in this industry are equally responsible for the correct and incorrect information we spread through our marketing, and at the end of the day, it is up to you to decide who and what you believe. So take it easy and enjoy the hobby

Ketan at ARC.

.

If the OP so strongly about it presumably he will not mind putting his hand deep into his pocket to purchase 'Satisfactory' ones made by Mitutoyo then.?

Nick

I would like to add, on the Indian front, what we reject goes back to the manufacturers who then sell it off - as is - to other local - Indian - trading companies, and they in-turn DO sell the rejected stuff on ebay.

I am sure that other legitimate importers go though processes which are similar to us, and I know that the stuff they reject also ends up on ebay. If such a buyer/user figures out that there is a problem with a product, he/she can automatically presume that all such product is crap, which is unfortunate for all legitimate sellers, be they on ebay or not.

Ketan at ARC.

Talk about a storm in a teacup !! Like the last man said,"If you want the best,buy the best". That said,the stuff being offered should live up to it,s claim. Fair play to ARC for making it,s position clear.While I dont think they were being singled out,they were being put in the line of fire,unjustly,I think.Let me add that I have never bought anything from ARC,not yet anyway,but who knows?.

For those who want bargain basement vee blocks,do as we do over here. We just chop off two bits of angle iron and weld them onto a lump of flat and away we go.Might not look the part but they,re cheap ! What,s a few mm here or there? Sure with a drop of paint on them,you,d not know the difference,never mind where they came from.

Life is too short to get your knickers in a twist over something like this,just dump them and move on.

PS We are working on a rotary table built around a car wheel,might be better than the one I bought !

Hi Nick,

I think that the OP is looking for guidance, given the choice available. I think that he has indicated on this and on another thread that he is prepared to put his hand in his pocket for a higher priced product, guided by what various people on the forum say.

Ketan at ARC.