Buying a Lathe Advice

Both the bikes I have are modern.. Not sure what projects I will have in the future.. (I am a metric person, but guess I might have to learn imperial mind sets)

For a spindle bore of 38mm you can forget Myford.

There are some others that may fit the bill like Chester Crusader or Warco GH550 needless to say bigger machines and they are more expensive.

Bob

The Chester Crusader Deluxe is fantastic value for the money, I don't think anyone else comes close and for bike work it would be ideal.

A machine of this ilk would 'future proof' you for quite a few years in fact may be your working life if looked after.

Some one was asking a similar question on another forum with similar limited experience. It's a tough one to answer as used lathe buying can be a mine field so in the end I had to suggest new cheaper Chinese. He was thinking about biding on a well used Myford ML7. The Chinese industrial machines are in an entirely different budget bracket. The comment they make about the cheaper ones and industrial use really relates to how long they will last in some respects if worked hard for long periods but there are other factors as well such as chuck size.

One example of the used lathe nightmare. Some one on Ebay had the bright idea of posting a video on a Colchester Triumph including showing it working. I've used numerous geared head lathes and know from the noises it was making that it's seen rather a lot of use. Also from the way the swarf was coming off that the headstock bearings are very probably rather loose. That can be a very expensive thing to fix if needed and some wont be adjustable. Given the state of the gears there will also probably be a lot of bed wear. Net effect, lathe turns a taper what ever you do and also the finish is likely to be poor unless heavy cuts are always taken. The cross slide will also very likely be rather worn as well. It's possible to buy completely reconditioned lathes of this sort of ilk from dealers but costs rise.

Spindle bore comes down to turning bar stock really. If the bar wont fit through the spindle pieces have to be sawn off and need some length left to hold in the chuck. When the actual part is parted off a short piece of bar will be left over. They build up as often they are too small to be of any use. A pro view on that for a SMALL lathe would be a spindle that can take 1in bar as that would cover a lot of work a lathe is likely to do. It can be handy to have a chuck on the lathe that has a 1in or more bore as that means that the left over bits can be longer and are more likely to be of use.

Lathes generally specify swing over the bed - often the cross slide travel wont cover that range. I'd hope it always covers the swing over the saddle and some as clearance is needed.

Some one mentioned a used Boxford. My personal feeling is that these are likely to be a better buy than many other used lathes but they are all under drive unless an ME10 can be found which is a bench lathe. The newer ones could also be bench mounted - cost used with some kit probably £3K plus for a fair example There will be well worn examples about of all types though. On this range a bigger spindle bore means a VSL which has 35mm bore. Those are far more likely to have been used in work shops that turn from time to time so should be a good proposition. The costs of chucks escalates on these though due to the spindle fitting as it does on many other lathes that don't use a simple screw spindle fitting. The older Boxfords may come from schools etc - or may have been used heavily by some home turner until it wont meet their finish/accuracy needs or some job turns up that needs a bigger lathe.

If you do buy used do hang on until one comes with the basic bits and pieces - 3 jaw, 4 jaw, face plate and at least the fixed steady. Burnherd chucks too or at least one of the well known makes. To be honest though Burnherd chucks are still better than these which is why they cost rather a lot more. Better in this case means less likely to break in use. It's not too difficult to strip or bend the scrolls in some makes of 3 jaw chuck just by tightening them too much. It's a bit harder to do that on a Burnherd.

John

-

Edited By John W1 on 06/07/2015 12:01:47

Don't be led down the HP path, my old Harrison was fitted with a 2HP single phase motor and could take 3mm + cuts no problem and do it all day, and I did when making some big parts. But you don't need anything like that for bike parts.

If your looking at Toolco's 1130V (the same as the Warco 280V but bigger spindle) it is fitted with a 1.5kw motor, also these motors have a separate fan so they are still fully cooled while running slowly, I'd have no hesitation doing any part in my 280V be it bike related or just general turning, you might have to take a bit longer to do the job but it'll still do it.

If I was looking for a lathe again and having had an old British industrial lathe and now a new Chinese lathe I'd be going for the new Chinese lathe again unless I found that holy Grail of a little used Boxford/Harrison/Colchester with full tooling 2 miles down the road going for a song. There is no way the Warco is as good as a new industrial lathe but it was a 1/4 the price and still at the limit of what I could afford.

At the end of the day it's all about what's available. New lathe delivered with warranty and spares backup or spend weeks looking through classifieds/Ebay etc and going to check them out and then when you've finally found the right machine moving the 3/4 tonne machine into your workshop. I think you can guess which way I'd prefer

By the way I'm/was a time served engineer and I've had my own workshop at home since I moved out from my parents and even then I used my dads lathes since I was a kid, I've been using lathes and other machinery for 35+ years so I've got a reasonable understanding of the difference between hobby and industrial use. I've also built, maintained and raced bikes all my life.

Steve

Maybe another warning in used 3 phase machines would be worth mentioning. Lathes generally have all sorts of interlocks fitted on them. When driven via an inverter these usually have to be junked as nothing should be between the inverter and the motor. Some people have "fun" sorting this out. Often for home use people make no use of them at all other than a prominent stop button added by themselves. Business type people who might get health and safety visits do not have such a simple life.

Noticing metric / imperial mention. Depends what the bikes you wish to work on use. If metric maybe a metric lathe would be a decent idea. Metric Boxfords should come with a type of screw cutting indicator that allows most pitches to be cut without reversing the lathe etc. Not sure what the Chinese metric lathes have on them. Metric on imperially lathes need conversion gears. People usually insist on having a 100 / 127 compound gear to do this with and the lathes have to be reversed but close approximations are generally more than adequate. Lots of screw cutting in practice is done with taps and dies as it's quicker anyway.

John

-

Just my two'pennorth...probably better looking for a good quality second hand British machine than a Chinese new one. A Harrison M250 would probably be a good bet for you. I have got one and they are tidy, capable machines. There are plenty of good examples of them about.

I work in engineering and onboard a ship. This place is the ultimate testing ground for tools of all types. In one workshop here there is a Warco lathe. It is 5 years old and completely knackered to the extent that bits fall off it when you want to use it. Meanwhile, the Harrison M series machine in another workshop we have is the same age as the vessel (close to 30 years) and is an absolute joy to use.

Buy the best and cry once.

Carl.

I think you have been given some conflicting advise there. The Myford has a spindle bore of just 15 mm and the recommended motor size is 1/2 hp three phase or 3/4 hp two phase.

You need to consider carefully what you will be doing on your lathe. What might you want to turn that will have to go through the spindle and be 38 mm diameter? I don't know much about motor bikes but I have restored a number of vintage cars and the times that my 19 mm spindle bore has been a limiting factor were few and far between. Centre height was more often a problem.

As for needing 3 hp it again depends on what you are doing. Is it a business where time is money or is it a hobby? More power enables you to go faster but for one offs the set-up time is often greater than the turning time. In any case, the WM250 V you were looking at is about 1.5 hp and the bigger brother the 280 V is 2 hp so both somewhere between the Myford and the Colchester/Harrison.

Hope that helps a bit.

Russell.

Hmmm I have single phase to the workshop already for the welder..... If I remember correctly I don't think I can get three phase so that could rule out any three phase machines...

....

The reality is that at this stage it is not a business.... But once I have made bits for my motorcycle it would be nice to sell some of it on to recover my own costs at least, anything more than that is small change on top... But I don't want to spend three house making a £14 part as that is not time efficant and you would have to ask why you are doing it in the first place... Imho

I feel I have to say something about buying something like a used Harrison. The lathe on the ship might have been brand new or scarcely used when it was fitted. I doubt if a lathe on a ship is used for long periods daily either. It's probably well maintained as well. Reminds me of a conversation directly with Myford who couldn't understand why there are so many of their really well worn machines about as they have them 30 odd years old in use and still fine. They know how badly they can wear as they get some back for reconditioning.

Basically the older a traditional make of lathe is the more likely it is that it's seen extensive use at some point in it's life and one persons view of a lathe in working order may not match others. Take true toolrooms for instance. They have grinders of all sorts about and a lot of work finishes up being hardened and ground so taper and finish on work that comes of the lathe doesn't really matter. It will at some point for some sorts of jobs so out goes the lathe and it's replaced.

Past something like the 50's or 60's I don't think which main make matters that much. There are some rolls royce brands but even a rolls royce wont run well with loose big ends, worn out steering gear and a burnt out valve or two. One of the worst catches with 2nd hand machines is makes like Schaublin. One that still deserves the name is likely to cost a lot of money also even if it doesn't any more. DSG is another also Lang but both of those are likely to be a lot bigger than the Schaublin and ideally need a machine shop floor. A bit thicker than a typical garage.

I'm time served too.

i feel some could buy a used main brand and finish up with something worse than a lower end Chines lathe - very easily if they can't test it properly before they buy. But an excellent example of one of the main makes is a better option if available and people are ;prepared to pay the price.. Sadly some dealers will be perfectly happy to sell machines which are past it really. On the other hand how bad a machine can be before it's a problem depends on what is going to be done with it.

John

-

You'll find yourself spending far more than 3 hours making parts that were cheap when available, I've spent days making parts that if available probably cost less than the materials I end up using never mind the time.

Steve

Edited By Bowber on 06/07/2015 16:39:07

Well, if you have a modern bike you are unlikely to ever have any projects. A typical Honda these days will give you 200,000 miles without much more than routine servicing. Then you buy a complete engine out of a low-mileage crashed bike at the wreckers, stuff it in your bike and carry on for another 200,000 miles.

Of course if your "modern" bike is a Harley or Royal Oilfield the story may be a little different. Some special tooling and small parts may be needed along the way.

If you are a metric "modern" person, then a metric Chinese lathe might be your best option.

I can't imagine anything on a motorcycle that would require a lathe with more than 1hp motor. Even my old 1937 banger of a lathe will take a .100" (2.5mm) cut with a 3/4hp motor.

On projects I am already creating a bullet fairing for a Thruxton which is bespoke including all the brackets... I also have other ideas that I would like to do as well....

With regard to the lathes on my ship - yes, the Harrison was likely put in when she was built or at the very least converted which would be 25 years ago. The Warco is about 5 years old. So if the Warco was well maintained then why has it only lasted 5 years?

Lathes might be well maintained on a cruise liner or container ship where there is nothing to do for 3 months. I'm on an offshore construction vessel where solutions are required last week. The lathes get no maintenance whatsoever because nobody has any time to do any and no department wants to claim responsibility. So they get a good going over every time I use them, which is not that often. They are more likely to be used by someone who sees them in the same light as a black and decker hand drill. The Harrison has withstood 30 years of abuse and is still a lovely machine to use. The Warco has stood 5. It is bloody awful.

Of course, as with any purchase it is caveat emptor, but I would still say a second hand UK made machine is a better investment than a Chinese new one. If it is 3 phase then a VFD can be had these days for reasonably modest outlay.

Well on my 1999 Kawasaki ZX7R I want to swap the whole front end (yokes, forks, brakes) for a 2008 ZZR1400 so that's a new spindle and brake caliper spacers there. And the swingarm is going to be from a 2006 ZX10R so that's more spacers. And generally tinkering to move things about. Which is why I bought a 1947 Barker (my choice, not a recommendation, I just liked what I read about them and wanted to preserve an old unique British lathe)

John

That's the problem with ex industrial lathes, your buying an old abused lathe and while some might be still accurate they usually aren't, headstock bearings that have been run in the same oil for the last 20 years, bed wear in the most used area and cross slide and compound slide wear along with their lead screws being worn out all add up to a machine that the new owner may end up spending more time correcting rather than using. Plus the prices of these used machines is not cheap, I've not seen a used M300 or M250 for less than £2k on ebay these days.

My friend runs a machine shop and he is in the process of renovating some of their lathes, some of the prices he's paying for Colchester parts is mad, £140+ for a compound lead screw, more for new taper gibs and the price of some of the bearings is eye watering and he still has a reasonably worn lathe at the end of it.

There is no doubt they are a much better machine than a hobby Chinese lathe but you pay for it.

Steve

Your argument proves, rather than disproves, my point. After 30 years of unsympathetic handling the machine I referred to doesn't have worn bearings and is still in good condition, albeit dirty.

I think with any used machine there are going to be ones that have been well used and also ones that have little use, it's just a case of waiting for the right machine to come up. To me it's a bit like buying a used car, there are indications as to the amount of miles the car has done and indicators to damage IF you know what you are looking for, same with machine tools, just painting a used machine does nothing for me in fact just makes me suspect as to its condition.

During my time at sea most of the lathes on ships had been well used and I do not think they were new when the ship was built rather one lifted out the shipyard even so accurate work is possible you just have to make allowances.

Bob

It all depends on the use it has had Carl what ever make of lathe. As to Warco which range of lathes? To get near Harrison etc it would have to be from this range. Maybe some loose screws needed tightening

**LINK**

At least the gears on these are hardened and ground. I have had the gears in the cheaper range. They aren't up to industrial use and some seem to have gone plastic to kill noise. That aspect is disgusting on machines I have heard. Even worse that correctly adjusted change wheels. Frankly if I was buying I'd rather they did pure belt drive. There is always the question of how well ground though. I'm reminded of a hand scraped tail stock. It was but that doesn't mean it was aligned.

Then to be fair some one would need to do a price comparison with the same off say Colchester but even a Boxford is 10k plus. I am assuming some are cheaper than their high spec one.

The other point is I very much doubt if a truly decent Harrison of the size mentioned could be found for under £3k or even more especially with the kit that is needed is with them. Then comes the question does it have a hardened bed. That all on it's own can make a huge difference to wear rates. That's why I mentioned a Boxford VSL, it will be.

There was another ilk of Chinese industrial machines coming over some years ago. I saw some at Excel. They were selling a lot of them round Coventry. Much more traditional looking, big head stock and also advertised as precision. I ask how much precision and was told that there was something in them to take care of spindle alignment. They sounded right, looked right but way too big and heavy for me as small as some were. Then there was cost. There was even a 1in bore spindle all belt driven one with a reasonable speed range about elsewhere too. Not for long though.

John

-

Edited By John W1 on 07/07/2015 15:19:19

I've used all sorts of machines in a few different environments. In industry, all the machinists I met and worked with were very fussy about how they treated their machines. A different story in schools, where lathes did suffer abuse - mainly tools crashing into chucks, but also lack of basic maintenance.

A reasonably competent machinist can produce accurate work on an older worn machine - it might take a bit longer to set things up and measure the job as it progresses to get the results but it's not difficult. Look at Adam Booth (Abom79 on Youtube) to see what he achieves on a Monarch that has seen many years of daily use. My elderly Boxford (1955 model) is still capable of producing work to within a thou with no problem.

My vote is definitely to go for a secondhand British machine - which is in fact exactly what I have done - I bought a Harrison. After a clean up, a dti on the headstock spindle shows a run-out of around 0.001mm. A bit of brass bar in the three jaw chuck shows a run out of 0.002mm. Would a new import lathe be as good? Probably, but I wonder if it would last as long.