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Greiner Ultrasonic Cleaner Repairs
| RJW | 08/12/2011 19:24:19 |
| 343 forum posts 36 photos | Not sure if I've posted this in the right place, but here goes! Does anyone know anything about repairing ultrasonic cleaners? I've a dead 3x tank Greiner 170W cleaner, each tank having its own transducers controlled from the main switch panel. Just to add a bit of angst to the mix, this one is an old valve type machine with a transformer that's blown, and my did it stink when it went 'poof' I recon a new transformer will probably fix it up, but there apears to be a couple of sets of wires coming out of the windings, which go to a block terminal on the chassis - which has settings for 110V & 240V plus something else I can't read. I only need 240V, so a single voltage mains transformer would do the job, assuming a 170W transformer can be had that will fit, but the wiring and gubbins around this thing is freaky! As much as anything, I'd like to know if some of the circuit can be chopped out and the transformer replaced. It was such a fanstic cleaner, I could have cried when it broke, clock wheels used to come out of this thing looking like new, and would very much like to rescue it if I can, especially as even a single tank 170W cleaner is way out of my budget for some time to come. Will upload some photo's later. Any help and advice welcome, but preferably not of the 'chuck it in the bin' vein just yet  Many thanks, John. |
| Ian P | 08/12/2011 20:39:22 |
 2747 forum posts 123 photos | John
You say you only need 240V, is that just the primary operating voltage?
If its has valves (how may?) then the secondary must have multiple windings so do you know what voltage and current each of these need to be?
I would not be convinced that it is just the transformer thats failed, something probably caused it to overheat first.
Photos, model number etc would help.
Ian Phillips
|
| RJW | 08/12/2011 21:22:41 |
| 343 forum posts 36 photos | Hi Ian, Many thanks for replying to my yelp for help, The primary voltage I'm using will be 240 volts, but I've not a clue what voltages of the valves are. The whole chassis is a rats nest of wires valves and other junk that I haven't the foggiest idea about. Details taken from the chassis plate as follows: Greiner 'Ultrason O', Type UO1, Nr 692011 Watts - 490, Volts: 112.5, 125, 225,250, Hz 50 - 60 Generator 40K Hz / 150W (FTZ - Serienprufnr: C 035/64) I thought it was a 170W from memory, looks like it's 150W I've done the usual Google trawl, but nothing showed up about this machine or even any info on repairing or building ultrasonics or info on understanding how the things operate. I'll get some photo's taken tomorrow in daylight, upload them to photobucket and post a link to them, as bigger images can be viewed on there. Many thanks again, John |
| Steve Garnett | 08/12/2011 21:24:25 |
| 837 forum posts 27 photos | If it has valves in it, then an indication of what these are, and the voltage rating of the reservoir capacitor will give quite a good clue as to what the transformer contains - that and a clue about the physical size of it. But like Ian says, I doubt very much whether it melted for nothing. I'd guess that if this is a 170W cleaner that it's quite a sizeable transformer... |
| RJW | 08/12/2011 21:37:25 |
| 343 forum posts 36 photos | Just a quick update, there are 2x valves, both identical, with the text 'Brimar - ECC88' on them, and both have 9x pins, no voltages or any other info The transformer body measures 100mm x 117mm x 50mm, and has 7 wires out which go to the circuit board at the back, and 5x wires in which appear to come from a rectangular connector block which has options for changing voltage via two multi pin devices. The voltage changing block is screwed to the frame, but I've no idea what the set voltage is, I'm assuming it's 240V ..............please God ! There is a big black wodge of goop visible in the centre of the coil where the transformer is blown, but I'll have to snip a few wires at the back of it to move it out of the frame for a better shot of the wiring and damage. John. |
| Ian P | 08/12/2011 22:09:51 |
2747 forum posts 123 photos | Its starting to bring back memories! I know the valves are double triodes and datasheets and new valves (probably Russian) should be obtainable.
It would be possible to get a transformer wound (or wind it yourself) altenatively it might be easier to use more than one transformer to get the right combination of voltages needed. One transformer source might be from the HiFi fraternity, a branch of which is convinced that 'Valve Sound' is best. If there are no readable markings on the transformer you may have to dismantle it to work out the ratios etc.
Even though it old there is no reason why it cannot be restored to good health, it just depends how much it means to you. I would imagine there will be other components that should be replaced (capacitors most likely) and definately check to ensure the mains wiring side is as safe as it should be.
Ian
PS
By memory, I did not mean this exact device, just stuff from the same era. Edited By Ian P on 08/12/2011 22:11:24 |
| RJW | 08/12/2011 22:25:14 |
| 343 forum posts 36 photos | I've taken several photo's now and uploaded them to photobucket, they came out ok with macro and flash, but let me know if you need any close-up's of any components and I'll willingly oblige. The shots can be slightly enlarged, you'll see the +/- symbol on the mouse cursor over an image. The valves don't appear to be discoloured or damaged in any way at all, and I can't see any destroyed wiring or soldered joints, other than the thick yellow wire into the transformer having a black burn on the covering from where the coils blew. What I'd like to do ideally, is ditch the multi-volt transformer along with all the extraneous wiring associated with different voltage requirements, and replace it with a single 240 volt unit. My simple engineers mind tells me it ought to be possible, but I'm probably barking up the wrong tree and maybe even barking having that train of thought, as it would probably mean re-hashing all the components on the board. I suppose the easy route would be a coil rewind, which would depend on cost .......not sure I'm up to that chore. I've no particular attachments to the machine, other than it was just so damned good, but being brung up in a 'make do and mend' era, I hate junking machinery if it can be salvaged. Not sure if hyperlinks come out on postings, so you may need to copy & paste into your browser address bar. Many thanks again, John http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa229/ebaywatchpics/Greiner/ |
| Clive Foster | 08/12/2011 22:55:48 |
| 3630 forum posts 128 photos | This link to a Harley Davidson motorcycle forum
http://www.harley-davidson-hangout.com/forum/hdrcgb-tech-tips/95261-ultrasonic-cleaners-how-make.html
refers to home building a 3 gallon capacity ultrasonic cleaner from a redundant deep fat fryer tank.
It says that transducers and power supply for a 3 gallon tank were got for £76 (ish) which maybe within your budget. Thread started in September this year so may well be adequately up to date.
Given the age and voltages involved in a valve driven tank I'd feel a lot safer going new new even though I theoretically have the electronics knowledge to sort one.
Clive |
| Les Jones 1 | 08/12/2011 23:25:12 |
| 2292 forum posts 159 photos | Hi John, I think there will be another valve (or valves) much larger than the ECC88's. The ECC88's are only low power devices so they could not generate the 150 or so watts of power to drive the ultrasonic transducers. The valves could be forced air cooled devices that do not look like normal valves. They could look like these An ultrasonic cleaner I saw in bits about 50 years ago had a large glass transmitting valve in it. These high power valves usually run on quite high voltages ( 500 to 2000 volts) From your pictures I cannot identify anything that looks like a high power valve. I notice there is a motor which I assume drives a blower. If there is a duct from this blower it could go to cool a valve like a 4CX250B. The most likely components to fail which would cause the transformer to fail are high voltage silicon diodes or the high voltage smoothing capacitors. Without knowing the full information on the transformer it would be difficult to rewind it. One other possible option could be to find a schematic for a more modern ultrasonic cleaner of similar rating that uses solid state devices and copy that. Les. |
| RJW | 09/12/2011 00:07:12 |
| 343 forum posts 36 photos | Clive, thanks for the link to the Harley site, unfortunately my browser security kicked in and blocked access to the links on the blog as having malicious software embedded, also had a 404 error code on them all. I did do a bit of web crawling from ideas kicked off by the site though when looking for ultrasonic drivers, and think some of you electronics wizards might enjoy the stuff on this site: http://www.imajeenyus.com/ Freely downloadable pdf's for the transducer driver they built plus a fair bit of other stuff, including ultrasonic drilling using transducers! ------------------------------------------- Many thanks Les, you're spot on! I looked under the dryer enclosure, and there are two more Big valves - Mullard EL34, one bulb has gone a very dark brown and the other white, as if covered in calcium but on the inside, the glass bulb has popped on that one! Like a dummy, I thought the 'bulbs' were just for heating the enclosure where parts are dried - the fan draws hot air from the alloy plate immediately above the valves. Shows what I know!  I think this thing is likely to be dead and deserving of its last rites, what say ye? I've checked a few ultrasonics on eBay, and looks like 150W is around £150, 100W is around £100, so £1 per Watt. It was a good cleaner though, and I especially liked the 3x tanks on this old machine which aren't an option on others! I could degunk really filthy stuff in fluids such as Horolene in one tank, rinse off, then second rinse in detergent with no need to faff around changing fluid all the time. Got a few ideas to kick around now anyway. John |
| Gray62 | 09/12/2011 16:20:03 |
| 1058 forum posts 16 photos | Hi,
EL34's are common output valves in guitar power amplifiers.
I'm sure this device can be resurrected, there are many manufacturers of suitable transformers for use in valve amplifiers and I suspect they are not too far away in specification from what you require, if you are close enough to East Hampshire or can get the unit to me, I am sure I can resurrect this for you. I have a great deal of experience working with valve based equipment and looking at the photos you have posted, this looks to be a fairly simple ( in valve technology terms) type of device. As long as the components are available (and all of the valves are!) there should be more life in the old dog yet.
Send me a PM and we can discuss this further offline.
kind regards
Graeme
|
| Les Jones 1 | 09/12/2011 18:17:22 |
| 2292 forum posts 159 photos | Hi John, I agree with Graeme (Coalburner.) about the availability of the valves and other components. Finding the right HT voltage to aim for will be the main problem. If it is too high it will output more power and may damage the ultrasonic transducers. Les. |
| RJW | 09/12/2011 20:39:13 |
| 343 forum posts 36 photos | Hi Graeme, Many thanks for generous offer to take a look at the wreckage for me, it's very much appreciated. I'll have to get the tanks and other body parts out of the loft and the tanks back onto the body, as all the wiring looms for the transducers plug into individual sockets, it's also a heavy brute when assembled, so I'll need to check the weight and which carriers will move it. I'm up in the frozen north about 30 miles north of Hull, so a carrier is the only option for me unfortunately. Will send a pm shortly. Thanks for the comments Les, being a simple nuts and bolts type person, I'm not sure how the HT voltage is arrived at or regulated, as I've tended to leave electrickery where it comes from ...............the wall socket, I'll take my lead from you two experts regarding the best route for this beastie! I'll post up some shots of the transducers too when I heave the tanks out of the loft, as they're quite an eye full, big blocks on each tank, each with coils of wires around them! you may want to walk away from it having seen them! John |
| Stub Mandrel | 09/12/2011 21:42:21 |
 4318 forum posts 291 photos 1 articles | It's not unknown for the heater windings to blow rather than the HT windings in valve gear. if this has happened then the valves won't glow...They will be 6.3V nominal for EL34s, unless the hetaers are wired in series... Neil |
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All Forum Topics > Workshop Tools and Tooling > Greiner Ultrasonic Cleaner Repairs